Hot Water Heater -It is all about up-charges

Bartee Lamar

Member
Messages
499
Location
Alpharetta GA ( Metro Atlanta)
Well, Thursday morning I went to take a shower and get to work early.

No Hot Water. So I take a almost cold shower, quickly.

Go to the basement ( shop ) and find water everywhere. I suck up about 80 gallons with the trusty Rigid wet/dry shop vac.
LOML goes online to find a hot water heater.

Sears !!! ( they have a Hot Water Tank hot line !!! )

9 Year warranty /40 gallon Gas.
Heater 349.99
Install 199.99
Permit 50.00
tax 19.60
Total 619.58.


Expansion take required, but included in price.

They can install today!!!.

Sounds good so far right?

LOML very impressed with customer service on the phone. They were very complete, even asked for exact measurements of unit.


Well, come 11:30am plumbing company calls, they cannot install today.

So LOML, decides she has to have something today. Calls local company. They will have someone between 1 and 4pm. Deal on telephone.

6 Year Warrany, 40 gallon, gas, $599 installed.

Plumber shows up about 3pm. Looks at unit ( I am not home ). Tells my wife:

Heater 599
Expansion Tank 225
Replace section of Cold Water Pipe 126
Reset T/P discharge line 187.08
environmental fee 7.50
TOTAL 1144.72

OK... The section of cold water pipe has a cutoff value and 1 foot of pipe, which has to be removed to install heater anyway. I have no idea what the T/P discharge line was for. I guess this is the overflow on the hot water heater that always has to be removed, so this was basically an up-charge to jack up the price.

OK, The wife call's me and I talk to plumber. I tell him thanks, but no thanks. Not going to pay $500 more for lesser product.

LOML call's sears back and reinstates order. Apologizes to me for being impatience.

Are you tired reading this yet... It's all about installation up-charges.....

Friday AM. I look online at the credit card charge and Sears has charged me $773. (not going so well now) Call them, find out the expansion tank is really not included. They do some research and give me credit for the installation charge for the expansion tank ( Yea!! ). Well that's good news, but I figure somehow it's still going to cost me something..

Are you completely over my hot water heater yet, I am!!

So the plumber, Pablo ( from Argentina, via New York ) shows up about 3pm on Friday. I go to the basement to assess the install.

Well 1st of all the hotwater heater is in a basement. It's a walk-in basement but anything with more than 3 steps is a basement. That's a $75 delivery fee. (up-charge) Then the gas pipe has more that 3ft of copper tubing and the cutoff values is dripping so it has to be replaced. ( yep another one)

I get a little agitated over the gas line. I know where this is going and it will not be cheap. I tell him to get "his inspector" here right now and will talk about the gas line. He backs down, but we still have the cutoff value. It's $53. So I give in on that and we are at $123 for the install. Sadly, I now think this is a good deal.

Remember the credit from Sears??? I knew it would get eaten up somehow.

So I think I have the plumber installation thing figured out. They have to get up-charges. That is where all the money is made.

You are without hotwater and all of a sudden there are a LOT of things wrong with you hotwater installation that HAVE TO BE FIXED.

I pointed out to Pablo the room full of tools. He quickly understood I knew what was going on.

I did stick around to help ( and protect my tools ). He was done in 1 1/2 hours start to finish.

So just to prove this happened, there are pictures. Here is the new unit. 9 year warranty, which means it will last 10 1/2 years. DAMHIKT

Here it is. IMG_1749.jpg This is a an expansion tank. Now required by code. IMG_1750.jpg

This is the cut off value that got replaced. IMG_1751.jpg Notice this all had to be reworked just to install the tank, but one guy want $126 for that.

So if you read all of this, maybe next time you have to take a cold shower, you will remember it and ask a LOT more questions that I did. And make sure you are home to meet and "discuss" the up-charges with the plumber.



My apologies to anyone who make their living doing this. I just expect people not to rip me off because they seem to know something I don't.
 
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Bartee, that really sucks, and they have you over a barrel, so what can you do eh?

We have an inline gas heater for the water and the heated floors in our house, it has worked very well, an I think is the way to go, never ever run out of hot water, and you don't pay to heat water sitting in a tank. We had trouble with the mixing value about 6 months or so ago. My wife called "Tokyo Gas" and they came to fix it. The guy came, was very good, put drop sheets down to protect the floor etc, did a fairly quick job, and then wanted my wife to sign off on a bill.... :huh:

"What do you mean bud, we have a maintenance contract, and a 10 year warranty....?"

Well, he says he don't know nothing about that and we have to sign off on a bill, that we would owe. My wife calls me, I come over, I tell the guy, politely, that he had better check with his office, as we are not paying squat, as we have a maintenance contract and the unit has a 10 year warranty.......

Now when I told him, he back down and did call his office and checked..... but when my wife told him, he would not back down and insisted on her signing the bill, that is what ticked me off, made me a very unhappy camper.

The next week, the unit was leaking water again....... this time they replaced the whole guts of the unit, the whole she bang, this time the guy knew we were set up, and the kicker is that our warranty got extended another 5 years, go figure, but like I said, if we had not fought for it, we would have been paying the first time out.

The up charge thing is really dirty pool, in my book, I wonder if you could contract the better business bureau or someone? :dunno:

Well, enjoy that hot shower, you have earned it! :rolleyes:
 
I had a similar upcharging experience the last time I replaced a water heater. I was selling the house, and right before it went on the market the water heater sprung a leak. I went to Sears and picked out a $600 or so water heater, but by the time it was installed I think I paid over $900 for it.

I just rolled the cost into the other fix-up expenses I'd had, and it all ended up paying off down the road.
 
What is an expansion tank for? I've never heard of this thing.

Around here lots and lots of folks have rentals. $69 a quarter. Free everything else. In an era when most people don't stick around long -- or don't think they will -- a deal like this is easy to take, since buying/installing a HWH has such a comparatively long payback period.
 
What is an expansion tank for? I've never heard of this thing.

Around here lots and lots of folks have rentals. $69 a quarter. Free everything else. In an era when most people don't stick around long -- or don't think they will -- a deal like this is easy to take, since buying/installing a HWH has such a comparatively long payback period.
Wow, a rental water heater? I've never heard of the concept. Are other "built-in" appliances (HVAC, dishwasher, cooktop, etc.) also available?
 
That sounds like a report to the BBB is in order. I have heard similar reports on Sears products before. We have a service contract on the furnace, AC, humidifier etc that also includes plumbing provided by a local mechanical contractor. I have used the plumbing coverage a couple of times with good results. So far, for us, the SC has been a good deal.
 
Sorry to hear about your situation. I've always replaced the hot water heaters myself but I have been caught on other things (replace garage door springs) so I know how you feel. When you have to get it fixed, they have you over a barrel.

Mike

[Last time the water heater went out, it was late in the day. I ran over to Lowes (right before they closed), bought one and brought the unit back with their $19.95 truck rental. By now, it's getting late so I tell my wife, "I'll hook it up tomorrow." And she says, "I have to go somewhere tomorrow morning and I want to take a shower. Can't you hook it up tonight?" So there it is, getting on to 10pm and I'm taking out the old water heater and putting in the new one. I only hooked up enough to make it work and finished the install the next day (such as the pressure relief pipe). I remind my wife that's she's really spoiled, having a handyman as a husband.]
 
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...Now when I told him, he back down and did call his office and checked..... but when my wife told him, he would not back down and insisted on her signing the bill, that is what ticked me off, made me a very unhappy camper...
Stu, my wife and I have run into this several times over the 30 years weve been married. Makes me a serious unhappy camper also. When I have to step in and they consequently back down, I make sure that individual or company looks pretty silly by pointing out their game plan and that I had to step in, and I make sure they understand that anybody I talk to will get an earful of what that company tried to do, and that ultimately they are shooting themselves in the foot. Bottom line there is I do get my pound of flesh when I know I'm being played. btw... my wife has gotten pretty tough when it comes to those things now and is no longer the easy target she was 30 years ago. Gosh even the health insurance people fear her now.:) As for up-charges... Bartee my blood was boiling reading your thread. I had my water heater (gas) replaced about 10 years ago, which means we're due soon, and I don't seem to recall that kind of hassle back then. But we used a plumber that was a friend of a friend, so there was at least some connection there. He gave us a price (forget what it was back then), he installed it and everybody lived happily ever after. No expansion tank ( why do you need that???). Point is though after reading your post, we will be asking a lot more questions this next time, whoever we get to do the job. I will insist on him/her telling me what it will cost TOTAL from when they arrive to when they walk out the door. The word "up charge" will probably be tactfully included in that conversation. Thanks Bartee.
 
What is an expansion tank for? I've never heard of this thing.

Around here lots and lots of folks have rentals. $69 a quarter. Free everything else. In an era when most people don't stick around long -- or don't think they will -- a deal like this is easy to take, since buying/installing a HWH has such a comparatively long payback period.

I think the expansion tank works like a shock absorber for the water and stops hammering of the pipes. I have seen similar smaller versions installed in areas that have taps and shower. They use to just add an 8 inch extension on the pipes and cap them off.
 
I think the expansion tank works like a shock absorber for the water and stops hammering of the pipes. I have seen similar smaller versions installed in areas that have taps and shower. They use to just add an 8 inch extension on the pipes and cap them off.
Question for any of the plumbers out there. In most places I've lived, the code required the anti-hammer pipe extensions described by Drew. But air is soluble in water so it seems like eventually, the air will dissolve into the water and the anti-hammer feature will no longer work (unless you drain the system to re-set it). Is that correct - that the anti-hammer pipes only work for a certain length of time?

Mike
 
Bartee, my daughter experienced a lot of upcharges when her water heater went out, and she had a Service policy that came with the house as part of the deal when she bought it, and the water heater was not the only item that they came up with upcharges on either. Needless to say that when that contract ran out, she did not renew it.

I have never had your experience, since I always replaced my own, (except for the one time that it sprung a leak while I was working overseas).

We did, however, have a messy (but comical situation in the end) though when one of the heating elements went out on a Sears Hot Water Heater that was still in warranty. They sent a repairman out and one of my FIL's employees met him and let him in and then left to run another errand. When she came back the service man was frantically trying to figure out how to put the element back into the heater (under pressure):rofl::rofl::rofl: since he couldn't figure out how to stop the water that was flooding the house (and already leaking out through the bricks around the base of the house on that side), after he had removed the heating element. He asked her HOW do you turn the water OFF, because there is NO METER or pipe in the water meter box in the alley, (he didn't know that we were NOT on city water, but on our own water well). When asked why he didn't try to turn off the water and drain the tank first, BEFORE he removed the element, he said that he "THOUGHT" the element in electric water heaters were in an enclosed housing inside the heater. :doh::doh: (Don't ask me how he thought it could heat the water that way). Anyhow, after it was repaired, the carpet people came and dried the carpet for a few days, (what a Pain that was), and then when they tried to restretch it, some of it came apart, and some had shrunk. It took a while and at first the local Sears people said they were only willing to pay for an install of whatever NEW carpet we would buy, but by the time my "Red Headed" LOML got through with the local Store manager, and a few at Corporate, we suddenly got a call from the local manager, (who Very Nicely, I might add), said that we should come to the store and pick out ANY Price carpet that they sold, and it would be installed " TOTALLY Free of Charge".

Note: This was the ONLY time I think I have EVER come out ahead after any kind of fiasco. We still laugh though when we think about that guy trying to put that element back in that hole with all the water rushing out in his face. I understand that they had several very thorough training sessions on their appliances for ALL their servicemen very quickly after that.:D
 
Question for any of the plumbers out there. In most places I've lived, the code required the anti-hammer pipe extensions described by Drew. But air is soluble in water so it seems like eventually, the air will dissolve into the water and the anti-hammer feature will no longer work (unless you drain the system to re-set it). Is that correct - that the anti-hammer pipes only work for a certain length of time?

Mike

Expansion tank
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Expansion tank in central heating system.An expansion tank is a small tank used in closed water heating systems and domestic hot water systems to absorb excess water pressure. Excess pressure can be caused by thermal expansion as water is heated, or by water hammer. The expansion tank usually contains a rubber diaphragm which divides the tank in two sections. One side contains a small volume of air, which is compressed so that it is equal and opposite to the water pressure. The other side of the tank contains water, which is openly connected to the plumbing system. Anytime the water pressure rises, it will push against the diaphragm, and gently compress the air. The compressibility of the air cushions the pressure shock, and relieves pressure in the system that could otherwise damage the plumbing system.

When expansion tanks are used in domestic hot water systems, the tank and the diaphragm must conform to drinking water regulations and must be capable of accommodating the required volume of water.

In the past, domestic plumbing often contained more air than they do currently. Thus, expansion tanks are being used more frequently than in the past.

In the UK, prior to the use of sealed expansion tanks, 'open' tanks were installed in the roof space to accommodate the water's expansion; these had the disadvantage of being exposed to the cold air in the roof space. This, with effective loft insulation could fall below freezing, and could cause the pipework supplying the tank to freeze. However with good pipe and tank insulation, this was in practice quite rare. Although such systems were remarkably trouble free, there are concerns about the potability of water from roof tanks due to the possibility of contamination. The other major disadvantage is that the water pressure from a roof tank is considerably lower than mains water pressure, making the use of mixer taps sometimes unpredictable.
 
Wow, a rental water heater? I've never heard of the concept. Are other "built-in" appliances (HVAC, dishwasher, cooktop, etc.) also available?

Just HWH and HVAC. It's kind of weird, as I don't know anyone who rents their furnace/AC, but tons and tons of people rent their HWH. I think HWH's are more maintenance-free than furnaces, so the rental rate is really quite low, which makes them very attractive to put in.


...An expansion tank is a small tank used in closed water heating systems and domestic hot water systems to absorb excess water pressure. Excess pressure can be caused by thermal expansion as water is heated, or by water hammer. The expansion tank usually contains a rubber diaphragm which divides the tank in two sections. ...
In the past, domestic plumbing often contained more air than they do currently. Thus, expansion tanks are being used more frequently than in the past.

Hey, this actually makes a lot of sense. I should check the local borg to see if they carry them. We're getting some hammer in the past few years and it would be nice to get rid of it.

But I don't understand the final comment about domestic plumbing used to contain more air. :huh:
 
J I should check the local borg to see if they carry them. We're getting some hammer in the past few years and it would be nice to get rid of it.

They carry them, but this might not get rid of your water hammer. It all depends on where your water hammer originates from. I have a private well so the water hammer I get comes from the pump being so far down in the well that trying to push that volume of water at start up, creates a water hammer.

An expansion tank on the water heater will not cure this problem. It only acts like a shock absorber, allowing the expanding, heated water a place to go should the pressure rise, but not reach the relief valve pressure.

Still they are worth putting in. There are few codes where I live, and no one checks them if even we did, but its cheap insurance. The one I installed is part of a system. It has a check valve to prevent boiler water from going back into to the domestic water. It also has a air/water separator to purge itself of any air, and it has a expansion tank to regulate the water pressure evenly. The final part is a relief valve that discharges any excess pressure over 50 pounds.
 
Wow, a rental water heater? I've never heard of the concept. Are other "built-in" appliances (HVAC, dishwasher, cooktop, etc.) also available?
I rent my water heater, 6.95 a mo., and have for 15 years ! 24/7 service, all parts and labor and permit fees when replacing. Just got a new one last year simply because the old one was less energy efficient and they offered me the new one. They replaced one other rather then fix a burner that would not stay lit. All at no cost. These are all good quality 50 gal. gas, no plastic fittings.
I also rented a conversion burner for the furnace (oil to gas) on the same program and terms for a few years till I bought a new gas furnace.
 
... It only acts like a shock absorber, allowing the expanding, heated water a place to go should the pressure rise, but not reach the relief valve pressure.
I don't understand why thermal expansion would require an expansion tank. The water system in your home is open to the supply - at least it is in a municipal system. If the water expands, it will just flow back into the pipes supplying the house. This is true even for a water heater. The water heater is "open" in that water can flow backwards through it as well as forwards.

So there should be no need (that I can see) for an expansion tank in a home supplied by a standard municipal water system to accomodate thermal expansion.

Water hammer is a different situation and it may (or may not, as Travis points out) help out.

Mike
 
WOW,

I did not realize this would be that interesting.

The only problem I had with doing the job myself, is getting rid of the old tank.

Stu, my last tank was a 9 year warranty tank. It lasted 10 1/2 year. Sorta strange how they have that figured out!!!

I did watch the entire procedure. I can do that, and unless it's 10 years from now when I am 70 I will do the next one.

The new tank was EXACTLY the same configuration as the old tank so it was just a matter of cutting out the old one and putting connectors on each pipe. You can see them in the pictures. You can also see the ones that were done 10 years ago.
 
I don't understand why thermal expansion would require an expansion tank. The water system in your home is open to the supply - at least it is in a municipal system. If the water expands, it will just flow back into the pipes supplying the house. ...Mike

Not necessarily. My municipal system brings the water to the meter at 135psi (!). Everybody in our neighborhood has to have a regulator installed just after the meter to bring the pressure down to a manageable 50~60 psi, and the pressure regulator also acts as an anti-backflow valve.

Without an expansion chamber on the line, my water heater can cause a pressure rise high enough to open the TPR valve on the water heater. The expansion chamber is definitely needed. I replaced mine a couple years ago (Home Depot & Lowes both carry them) at a cost of about $60.00.

As others have said, it's a rubber bladder inside a tank. You inflate the bladder to about 5 psi over your regulated water pressure, and it buffers the pressure rise very nicely.
 
Not necessarily. My municipal system brings the water to the meter at 135psi (!). Everybody in our neighborhood has to have a regulator installed just after the meter to bring the pressure down to a manageable 50~60 psi, and the pressure regulator also acts as an anti-backflow valve.

Without an expansion chamber on the line, my water heater can cause a pressure rise high enough to open the TPR valve on the water heater. The expansion chamber is definitely needed. I replaced mine a couple years ago (Home Depot & Lowes both carry them) at a cost of about $60.00.

As others have said, it's a rubber bladder inside a tank. You inflate the bladder to about 5 psi over your regulated water pressure, and it buffers the pressure rise very nicely.

Jim, municipal water pressure is not created via pumps like my system is. Instead pumps push water up to a water tower. The "drop" also called "head" from the level of the water in that tower, to your house. Since the water tower is typically always full, your water pressure is generally the same.

Since you have 135 pounds of pressure, and there is about .485 pounds per foot of drop, your faucet is located about 65 feet from the normal level of your municipality's water supply level.

Its kind of interesting because this system has been in place from the Roman times. Its why their fountains worked, and why the viaducts were built. Its also how hydro dams work. The latter is interesting unto its own in that most people think that a hydro dam is "really making power" during spring floods.

That is not true. IN fact its the opposite. This time of year,when the reservoir is high, but the flow over the spillway is high as well, the level of the river below the dam is high as well. That reduces the drop or "head" of the dam. So in essence, the hydro dam makes more power during drought when the ratio of reservoir water,to river water below the dam, is greater.

But this is probably information everyone has heard before I'm sure. :)
 
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