New Car buying fun . . .

Rennie Heuer said:

I hear this a lot, but it is only partially true. The countries that have not done stupid stuff, like us, and continued to invest in exploration, drilling, and refining are paying a lot less per gallon than we in the US. Brazil, china, Saudi - all less than $2 right now - some under a dollar! If we had not been putzen around for the last 30 years and invested in the same things we would not have lost tens of thousands of jobs to other countries that have lower energy costs. Don't even get me started on the idiocy of turning food into car fuel . Just my $.02.

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No country that's charging market rates is selling fuel (like gasoline or diesel) for $2/gal. Brazil sells ethanol (primarily), while China and Saudi Arabia subsidize fuel. With oil going for $150/barrel no one can produce gasoline and sell it retail for $2/gallon and make a profit.

An oil barrel is 42 gallons. If you could get 42 gallons of gasoline out of that (you can't - you can get maybe 30), at $150/barrel it would cost you $3.57 per gallon, not counting the refining cost, the distribution cost, and the profit that must be made at each step of the chain.

Looking at the other side, if you only got 30 gallons of gas from a barrel, and the other 12 gallons were useless (they aren't), the gas would cost $5/gallon not counting the refining cost, the distribution cost, and the profit that must be made at each step of the chain.

And the idea that a free country could force its oil companies to sell the oil they produce (even in that country) at a price significantly less than the world market price is not realistic.

The only way to reduce the cost of gasoline or diesel is to reduce the cost of a barrel of oil. And the only way to reduce the cost of oil is through the market (supply and demand). We might be able to get the producers to pump more oil, and thus reduce the price, but we're only delaying the inevitable.

But the market will work - although it takes time - and we will find ways to use less oil, which will reduce demand and reduce the price of oil until a balance is reached.

Mike

Mike Henderson said:

No country that's charging market rates is selling fuel (like gasoline or diesel) for $2/gal. Brazil sells ethanol (primarily), while China and Saudi Arabia subsidize fuel. With oil going for $150/barrel no one can produce gasoline and sell it retail for $2/gallon and make a profit.

An oil barrel is 42 gallons. If you could get 42 gallons of gasoline out of that (you can't - you can get maybe 30), at $150/barrel it would cost you $3.57 per gallon, not counting the refining cost, the distribution cost, and the profit that must be made at each step of the chain.

Looking at the other side, if you only got 30 gallons of gas from a barrel, and the other 12 gallons were useless (they aren't), the gas would cost $5/gallon not counting the refining cost, the distribution cost, and the profit that must be made at each step of the chain.

And the idea that a free country could force its oil companies to sell the oil they produce (even in that country) at a price significantly less than the world market price is not realistic.

The only way to reduce the cost of gasoline or diesel is to reduce the cost of a barrel of oil. And the only way to reduce the cost of oil is through the market (supply and demand). We might be able to get the producers to pump more oil, and thus reduce the price, but we're only delaying the inevitable.

But the market will work - although it takes time - and we will find ways to use less oil, which will reduce demand and reduce the price of oil until a balance is reached.

Mike

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Mike, You're probably more knowledgeable about this than I am. I did just hear recently that only 15% of Brazil's energy is ethanol. They are, I heard, 100% energy independent primarily due to their off-shore operations. I don't know about Brazil, but I do know that many, if not most, of the oil production in other countries is state run - Don't agree with it, just sayin'. I'm a firm believer in the free market system.

The point I'm trying to make (and I am in complete agreement with you on supply and demand) is that the US is the ONLY country that has so restricted exploration, refining, and drilling as to force itself into major dependency. We've been sitting on our haunches for 30+ years while others have seen that they truly needed to develop the resources necessary to sustain their economy. Case in point - there are no less than 6 other countries (China included) drilling in the outer shelf just 60+ miles off our shores. What's wrong with this picture?

The way to drop prices, as you alluded to, is to increase supply. I think this is where we need to place our efforts. It might take a decade to develop some of those resources (opponents said the same thing 10 years ago - thanks a bunch), but others, like shale oil, could be online in 18 months.

The US is no longer the driving force it once was in the energy market. China and India are going to continue to push demand sky high. I'd rather be on the supply end of the equation rather than the demand end. IMHO

I've spent too long on my soap box :soapbox:. I'll just sit back now and read and learn.

Rennie - Looks like we are in almost complete agreement. The only place I would differ is that I would encourage the development of non-fossil fuel energy - such as nuclear and green. My reasons are two:

1. No matter what the source, fossil fuel is a limited resource. We can increase the rate at which we extract it and use it but eventually we'll run out - and the price will keep increasing as it gets harder to find and extract.

2. No matter how you feel about the global warming effects of carbon dioxide, it can't be a good thing to keep dumping huge amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. If global warming is real and continues, the effects on the human population will be catastrophic. It's only prudent that we try to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide.

I fall into the "glass half full" camp. I see the increase in the price of oil as an opportunity for the United States to lead the development of alternate energy sources, and alternate methods of using energy (I'm a big fan of plug in hybrid cars).

Mike

[P.S. I'm not a big fan of hydrogen. I'll give my reasons in a later post if anyone's interested.]

Jim,

Now that you've had the Yaris a few days, any new discoveries? Every new (to me) car I've had there were always a few things that jumped out that I didn't notice when I bought it. Things like when I discovered the cabin lights come on when the door handle is pull (without opening the door). Helps when I can't see what I'm doing in the dark. (My wife would say I'm usually in the dark - but that's another thread!)

Wes

Rennie Heuer said:

Case in point - there are no less than 6 other countries (China included) drilling in the outer shelf just 60+ miles off our shores. What's wrong with this picture?

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Rennie,

I'm not arguing with your main point- that we should have been doing things differently these last 30 years. I couldn't agree more. But I was so surprised by your assertion above, having followed this all to way back to a certain administration not signing the law of the sea treaty, that I did a little digging. Here's what I found, from an article last week:

China drilling for oil off Florida coast?

Thanks,

Bill

Replying to Wes' question on my thoughts so far . . .

I like the car very much. It has much less low end torque than the VW Passat I traded in. It makes the "starting from a dead stop going uphill" a little more difficult.

The creature features are a little spartan. I didn't go for the interior upgrades, just the power package. I bought the base 4 door sedan with 5 speed car and the interior power package - updated radio, power windows, ABS and traction control, remote keyless entry. They do only give you 1 gadget-key. All my other cars have come with 2.

The gauge package is in the middle of the dash not in front of the driver. I'm getting used to that. It has a minimal set of gauges - tach and speedo and idiot lights - Not temp / pressures / electric gauges. I do miss the outside temp and travel time the VW had. I used to know I was "on-schedule" if I was exiting the Turnpike within 13 minutes of departure from work.

The wipers do not have a variable intermittent feature - not sure if it's available in an upgrade package.

We went to the Englishtown NJ Auction / Fleamarket Sunday and the car ran fine with 2 adults and kids in it. The kids say the back seat is comfortable. I can comfortably sit in the back seat behind the drivers seat where I have it set for myself. I'm 5-9 so taller folks might come up a little tight.

I have only driven 350 miles since I got it so I havent had to fill it up yet. Since it's not on E and only has an 11 galon tank it looks like it's getting great mileage. If I could keep it under 75 on the NJ Turnpike / I-78 the gas mileage would be even better.

The color is beautiful - its the deeper red - can't think of the name right now.

I did go and get the plates this evening. A salesman saw me pull up and asked how I like the car's gas mileage. I said that's why I bought the car. I had to fight them to sell it to me but I'm happy.

I dropped $ into the VW in the first 2 years - right at 36K miles. The dealer cheated me on a warranty emission thing (long story) and the list went on from there. Hopefully the Toyota has fewer freaky $ repairs than the VW.

Things like window lift motors (passenger side - rarely even opened) and rear shocks.

Cheers

Jim

Jim Mattheiss said:

The wipers do not have a variable intermittent feature - not sure if it's available in an upgrade package.

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This would drive me nuts. I use my intermittent wipers all the time.
I had to go check the toyota.ca website and couldn't find any mention of intermittent wipers.

So I turned to google and found this thread. They claim that it isn't even an option in the USA. However he gave the part number for the Camry wiper switch, which you can just swap right in to replace the one on the Yaris. Cool.

Art Mulder said:

However he gave the part number for the Camry wiper switch, which you can just swap right in to replace the one on the Yaris. Cool.

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Isn't the internet cool.

Thanks for the update Jim. I suspect the lack of "giddy-up" will become less of an issue with time - when it's not there, maybe you won't miss it. But I do like that umph when accelerating. My Olds has 230 foot-pounds of torque @4400 rpm - 90% on tap at only 1600 rpm. That equates to a nice kick in the shorts! Naturally that doesn't help the fuel economy much.

It's nice they had a separate power package. Usually they seem to lump all sorts of other stuff in with it - and a price to match. Good thinking on Toyota's part.

How is the shoulder room? I'm short, but wide in the shoulders. (unfortunately, my waist is expanding to match) That's usually a killer for me when looking at smaller cars.

Good luck with the new "baby". Sounds like a good choice was made.

Wes

Bill Lantry said:

Rennie,

I'm not arguing with your main point- that we should have been doing things differently these last 30 years. I couldn't agree more. But I was so surprised by your assertion above, having followed this all to way back to a certain administration not signing the law of the sea treaty, that I did a little digging. Here's what I found, from an article last week:

China drilling for oil off Florida coast?

Thanks,

Bill

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Great info. Thanks!