Alternate powered cars

Pete Simmons

Member
Messages
546
Location
Melbourne, FL
By now many of you know energy is one of my hot buttons.

I have had a few people email me about two wonderful events of recent.

A car powered by compressed air and the hydrogen Honda now available (limited ) in Calif.


Does anybody wonder where the energy to compress the air comes from??

Does anybody wonder where the hydrogen comes from???


I could show many ways to power an auto from rubber bands to nuclear power but NONE of them are as practical as good old gasoline. Even at $5 - $15 per gallon.

One of the problems with high priced gasoline is that it is still a GREAT deal. To bad most of us ( me included ) cannot afford it.
 
Good points, Pete. If we could bottle up all the hot air that gets expelled during election season, maybe we'd have plenty of energy to power our vehicles. :rolleyes:
 
I'm really a fan of the "plug in hybrids". According to the literature, the cost to charge the battery - good for about 40 miles - is about $1.50 (battery is 16kWh but it's never a full charge - usually only 8kWh for a charge). Note that this is at market rates - the generation and distribution of electricity is not subsidized.

Additionally, the charging can be done at night when the demand is usually low so it will take a lot of plug in hybrids to overload the existing electrical grid.

This doesn't do away with emissions but it does provide much more efficient transportation (miles per dollar).

One thing that has me wondering has to do with the tax on fuels (gasoline and diesel) that pays for the roads. If someone lives close enough to work that they can drive to and back on a charge, they'll never pay any fuel tax which could affect the upkeep of the highways. They'll have to be some alternative way to tax plug in hybrids that's fair to all.

Mike
 
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Batteries, Fuel Cells, Hybrids, Vegetable Oil, Ethanol, other forms of BioDiesel, Compressed Air, Hydrogen.......

What they ALL seem to misunderstand is no matter WHAT the far-out sounding technology, so far, the single MOST efficient way we have to move energy from one place to another, is refined petroleum. Gasoline/Diesel. More (Often WAY more) energy per pound/volume than any other system.

And when it comes to fueling a vehicle, that's all you're really doing - moving energy from one place to another.

If we really wanna "throw money" at a problem - throw it at Fusion. In the meantime, build conventional Fission plants like there's no tomorrow - and keep right on burnin' that oil. There's plenty. Really. The whole "Running out" thing is just boogyman scare tactics.

-Kevin in Indy
 
Batteries, Fuel Cells, Hybrids, Vegetable Oil, Ethanol, other forms of BioDiesel, Compressed Air, Hydrogen.......

What they ALL seem to misunderstand is no matter WHAT the far-out sounding technology, so far, the single MOST efficient way we have to move energy from one place to another, is refined petroleum. Gasoline/Diesel. More (Often WAY more) energy per pound/volume than any other system.-Kevin in Indy
It's true that gasoline and diesel have a lot of energy per pound - but an internal combustion engine is very inefficient - it only extracts about 20% of the energy potential in the fuel - the rest is lost as heat.

A battery is not as energy dense but it's a lot more efficient. A Li-Ion battery is about 99% efficient in storage (energy in to energy out) and an electric motor can easily be 90% efficient (electrical energy in to mechanical energy out).

Mike
 
We went to the dealership to sell the minivan and look at a prius last night. As expected, we'll get about 1/3 less for the sienna than we would have just several month ago. You should see the car lot... row on row on row of big SUVs just sitting there, and anything fuel efficient has "fleet only, not for sale" on it. They use those for test drives.

Doorlink and I both drove the prius. I was impressed how roomy and nice it was inside. But the real shock was getting into the minivan to drive again. I felt the way you do when you walk into one of those american/"italian" restaurants with the huge portions. Decadent, selfish, wasteful... none of those words describe it, really... it's more like its hard to enjoy the way something tastes when you know people in the same city are hungry. Every time I stepped on the gas I felt it, and every time I had to brake it was worse.

We haven't decided what to do. We may just sell the van and not get a prius. But we were sitting sipping margaritas while James ate some promised ice cream, and Doorlink handed me a piece of paper and a pencil. She said "figure out what we'd actually save". When I showed her we could go a thousand miles on twenty gallons she just let out one of those low whistles...

Thanks,

Bill
 
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Bill, do a search for one of the Prius discussion forums. You will get tons of information from those. You might end up 'talking' with my son. He has a Prius and is an avid devotee of the concept and car. His is about five years old now and long paid for. So he is practically driving for free these days.
 
...A Li-Ion battery is about 99% efficient in storage (energy in to energy out) and an electric motor can easily be 90% efficient (electrical energy in to mechanical energy out).

Mike

Yeah, but the majority of the electricity used to charge those batteries will be sourced from oil or coal fired generating plants, so there's still significant petroleum being used - just in a form that's not so readily apparent.

The real oil-use reduction with 'electric' cars will only come when the electricity used comes from non fossil fueled generation - like from nuclear power plants which the 'greenies' hate, even though they've historically been one of the safest, most efficient sources of energy.
 
Yeah, but the majority of the electricity used to charge those batteries will be sourced from oil or coal fired generating plants, so there's still significant petroleum being used - just in a form that's not so readily apparent.

The real oil-use reduction with 'electric' cars will only come when the electricity used comes from non fossil fueled generation - like from nuclear power plants which the 'greenies' hate, even though they've historically been one of the safest, most efficient sources of energy.
I absolutely agree with you, Jim. On the positive side of fossil fuel electricity generation, a power plant is a lot more efficient in converting the energy in the fuel to electricity than an internal combustion engine. Also, since it's a single source, and big, there are things that can be done to mitigate the pollution and green house effects, things that can't be done on a road vehicle. For example, you can consider carbon sequestering at a power plant but it would be essentially impossible on an automobile.

While I agree we should focus more on nuclear generation and green energy sources, until we get there the "electric" cars will help. And after we get there the electric cars are necessary to maintain the non-emitting advantages of the generators.

Mike
 
We went to the dealership to sell the minivan and look at a prius last night. As expected, we'll get about 1/3 less for the sienna than we would have just several month ago.
...

We haven't decided what to do. We may just sell the van and not get a prius. But we were sitting sipping margaritas while James ate some promised ice cream, and Doorlink handed me a piece of paper and a pencil. She said "figure out what we'd actually save". When I showed her we could go a thousand miles on twenty gallons she just let out one of those low whistles...

Bill,
... how much would you get selling it privately vs trading in. (more, I bet)
... if it has been parked for 2 months, then how much would you get from just selling it and NOT buying anything. Can you live without the van? Is the little pickup enough for you? (I have no idea how large your family is)

... Here is the big one that everyone considering a Prius should do: compare the Prius to just buying a low mileage car such as a Honda Civic or similar. You need to take the price differential (up front cost difference, plus any more you'd spend on financing that price difference) and figure out just how long it would take you make that money back based on the operating cost savings. And that is all about mileage. If you drive a LOT, then the MPG difference between a Corolla/Prius will be paid of quickly. If you don't, then it'll take longer.

best
...art
 
Couple of things:

First, think about the long term costs. How soon will the hybrid need a battery change, and how much will it cost? This will be of particular concern with the forthcoming 'plug-ins.'

Second, how much will you save by buying a newer, more fuel efficient car? Assuming 1000 miles a month (typical), and your current car at 15 mpg, it will cost $266.68 per month for gas at the current $4.00 per gallon, or $333.35 at $5.00 per gallon (probably in the very near future).

For a 40 mpg car - hybrid or otherwise - the same monthly mileage will cost $100.00 at $4.00 per gallon, or $125.00 at $5.00 per gallon.

Assuming $4.00 per gallon, your monthly savings will be $166.68. At $5.00 per gallon, the monthly savings will be $208.35.​

Now, the big question becomes: Can you buy the new fuel efficient car for less than a $166.68 monthly car payment (at $4.00/gal) or $208.35 per month (at $5.00/gal)? If you can't, then there is no real savings. Sure, you'll use less fuel, but you really won't be spending less. It's all just a question of where you want your money to go - to the gas station or the finance company...

Okay, the ball's in your court now.
 
Bill,
... how much would you get selling it privately vs trading in. (more, I bet)
... if it has been parked for 2 months, then how much would you get from just selling it and NOT buying anything. Can you live without the van? Is the little pickup enough for you? (I have no idea how large your family is)

... Here is the big one that everyone considering a Prius should do: compare the Prius to just buying a low mileage car such as a Honda Civic or similar. You need to take the price differential (up front cost difference, plus any more you'd spend on financing that price difference) and figure out just how long it would take you make that money back based on the operating cost savings. And that is all about mileage. If you drive a LOT, then the MPG difference between a Corolla/Prius will be paid of quickly. If you don't, then it'll take longer.

best
...art


Art, I agree completely with you. I would like to see a chart or simple formula that would help make those decisions. e.g. price of new car, expected mileage and cost of gasoline compared. Where the lines intersect you find the actual cost. Math gurus, please help.
 
Battery

I think Toyota has a good warrantee on the battery to try and take battery repair / replacement out of any long term calculations.

Can someone post the battery guarantee?

This added after the post that sent me to the link

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage -

Hybrid-related components for hybrid vehicles are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.
 
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After working out of a Prius for over a year, I can tell you that for daily liveability they're very comfortable cars. I'm 6'3 and only after a long day behind the wheel do I begin to be anything approaching uncomfortable. An Inch more legroom would solve most of my problem even then. Were it My car and not the company's I would figure out some way to remount the seat 1" further back.

As far as daily operation, fuel economy etc... a lot depends on how and where you drive, and your driving style of course. I spend a lot of time sitting still with the system powered up, to operate my computer and so forth, so my fuel economy isn't as good as the serious stealthy prius folks. In fact, on this tank I'm only averaging 31.4 mpg at the moment. Normal for me is upwards of 40 to 41mpg, which includes a fair amount of highway driving getting to my assigned grid for the day.

A couple of years ago, when gas was at about $2.50 a gallon, I asked my Dad to find me a decent old 4 cylinder import down in VA. He got me a 95 Mazda protege with about 110k miles on it. that was in '05. We live out in the 'relative' country, so we average 20k miles per year easily. That little protege Can still get over 40mpg at 182k miles. It has a few idiosyncracies, and a little rust starting to show, but I'm fully planning on keeping it on the road til it falls apart under me. My lumber hauler will be leaving in trade later this year, and we're looking at which minivan we'll be getting. there are 6 of us and we need the room.

Bill, funny thing, you're looking to trade in the van I'd really prefer to buy, but different strokes...
 
Bill, funny thing, you're looking to trade in the van I'd really prefer to buy, but different strokes...
No, no no, Ned. This is where you offer to buy Bill's van for a bit more than the dealer was offering him in trade. ;)
(It's probably less than what it'd cost you to buy one off a lot.)

Hmmm no wait, if Bill is right, if you just wait 2 or 3 months it'll be even cheaper. :rofl:
 
Another questions for those in the know--are insurance rates for the Prius appreciably higher than for conventionally powered vehicles? I would think so due to higher priced components that allow the economy in operation.
 
Bill,

For what it's worth, when I first visited the Toyota dealer about purchasing a Prius, I too wanted to trade a minivan (2001 Odessey). However, the trade offer by the dealer was so laughable that I left the dealership in a bit of a huff. I ended up listing my car on Craig's list and sold it for "fair" market private party value in one weekend.

I ended up accepting the first of a couple of offers that I received (the second one was higher but I had already shaken hands on offer number one). The difference between what the dealership offered me in trade-in and what I sold it for was about $2500. All in all, I would say it was well worth the hassle of the private party sale. Also, I'm quite certain that someone with any salesmanship skills could have likely gotten a lot more.
 
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