Fence design

Bill Lantry

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Hey, folks,

I need a new fence out back. The old one's a joke: 4' of 30 year old battered chainlink, enclosing too small an area. The dogs can clear 4', so there's another foot of green snow fence, held up with stakes and baling wire (did I mention it's an unsightly joke? ;) Not only that, but it's vulnerable at the corners, and the border collie has lately been exposing that vulnerability whenever there's thunder in the area. Then she goes and hides in the shop... ;)

So, I need a good design. It needs to be secure, but it also needs to be cheap. Remember the old rule of thumb for programmers: cheap, secure, pretty: pick two. ;) It needs to be 142 feet long. Did I mention it needs to be cheap? ;)

So: three 50' rolls of 60" wire. How to hold it up? Well, with 4x4 posts, every 8 feet. Ok, need laterals. 2x4s? 1x4s? Three in each section: ground level, top, and middle. Do I notch the posts to receive them? Just attach them with stainless steel screws? Attach them, put on the wire, and then use a one by four vertically up the post to cover the wire? (I saw that technique in horse country last weekend)

I can't imagine anything cheaper than that that's going to strong enough. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bill
 
I take it privacy is not an issue. I think your idea would work, however, if it were me, I would make it so that I could add 5' or 6' cedar fence boards as the budget allows. I've built a number of fences, all different styles, and have yet to notch any of the rails into the posts. I typically use either the Simpson-style metal fence brakets or toe-nail the rails with 16d galv. nails

Also, I think the rails have to be at least 2"by4" if you're going to space the posts 8' apart.
 
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Isn't chain link with steel posts the cheapest for fences?
(no I haven't done the math, I just think I've heard that a few different times)

And if it is just for the dogs, then why not get one of those electronic collars and bury a wire around the perimeter of the current fence. Then you can take down the snow fence addition and live with the old fence.

...art
 
Hey, folks,

The dogs can clear 4', so there's another foot of green snow fence,

I had a pair of boxers a few years ago and saw one of them jump a 6' fence without any run up :eek:. So I added a foot of trellis to keep him in:) So he took a run up next time and scraped his back legs as he cleared it! Never underestimate a motivated canine.
 
I wrote a whole page on fence building and then just deleted it. I was going to tell you how I built my kennel but I don't think that is the proper thing to do here. My suggestion instead is to get the Premier 1 fencing catalog from Premier 1 of course.

Its tells you step by step what it has for fencing products, how to order it and just how to build a fence to keep anything in. Yes anything, from deer and goats, to sheep horses and cattle. It gives you options too, from the least expensive to the most expensive and rates them by durability and by longevity.

I have a catalog and its 120 pages long and reads like a how too book for fencing. Even if you find cheaper products elsewhere, at least you will see what you have for options, make a good plan, and then build a good fence. Here is a link to their website and good luck.

http://www.premier1supplies.com/
 
Thanks for all the replies! In ascending order:

Yes, I found that premier site while doing research. I especially enjoyed the camelids section! ;)

"A determined Australian Shepherd and her Border Collie sidekick can scale almost anything"

Well, the girl just ain't as young as she used to be, but if a ball goes over the fence, she's going over too! I could build it to eight feet, and she'd still find a way! ;)

"So I added a foot of trellis to keep him in"

Things are the same on any continent, I guess. The posts are 8 feet, I'm sinking them 18 inches. The fence will be 60", and I'm thinking of leaving the last 18" of post, just so I can add trellis later if I need it...

"Isn't chain link with steel posts the cheapest for fences?"

It may be cheapest for pros to put up, but it's *way* out of my price range. And trying to stretch it by myself... well, it would sag and look awful!

"Another vote for cedar, if it would fit your budget. "

Greg, that fence looks great! Wish I could afford something like that! Maybe someday...

"Also, I think the rails have to be at least 2"by4" if you're going to space the posts 8' apart."

Peter, I'm thinking the same thing. I have a feeling the 1x4s would twist and warp. Quite frankly, the thought of notching all those posts is making me reconsider... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Went out yesterday evening with my handy clamshell posthole digger and started going at it. You need to know that in 1992 I dug postholes for a 450' fenceline in Nashville. I'd actually broken my arm a few weeks previously... or rather rebroken an old athletic injury trying to one-arm a live christmas tree with a pot full of wet soil. I couldn't hold the digger when it hit, so I was essentially throwing it into the hole, while the snow swirled around me, but I got it done.

But here, the durned neighbor planted pine trees along the property line... boy do I loath those things. So the first few inches is full of roots, then a few more inches down there's a layer of rocks, then another few inches down there's hardpan. Long story short: in two hours I got six holes dug, and most of those not deep enough. Not only that, but I was aching pretty good. Digging postholes in your 50s is not the same as digging them in your 30s! ;)

So I went and rented a one-man gas posthole digger. It's a lightweight thing, but I'm hoping it will help. I'm sure I'll hate that thing by the time I take it back at 8 pm. ;)

Got a 6' digging bar, too. Talk about implements of destruction! ;)

Off to do battle! ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Bill

Be careful with that digger. I hired one that didn't have a disconnect between the auger and the engine and ended up nearly dislocating a shoulder. If you have roots and stony ground be careful of the thing snatching out of your hand or even worse snatching your hand away!!

Good luck
 
Bill

Be careful with that digger. I hired one that didn't have a disconnect between the auger and the engine and ended up nearly dislocating a shoulder. If you have roots and stony ground be careful of the thing snatching out of your hand or even worse snatching your hand away!!

Good luck

amen!! those things grab and its off to the races.. me and brother both were on one of those two handled critters and when it hit the hard stuff we both went for trip.. of course it depends on the horsepower but if i had a old injury that broke once already i would'nt try it. i vote for the chain link just get a price and compare you might be surprized,, wood isnt cheap either..
 
Well, I had a big Garrison Keeler moment yesterday. You know how he's always joking about english majors, and how our education is worth nothing, but at least it gives us a constant internal dialog? He's exactly right. Woody Guthrie used to sing an old song called "Buffalo Skinners", one of the lines goes:

"First darn tail I went to rip, that's how I caught my thumb!"

Which I was thinking about all day, cuz the first hole got me pretty good. I fired up the machine, was going along fine, hit a rock, and the durn thing darn near ripped my shoulder off. I was sure I broke my arm. Dang!

The guy who rented it to me insisted I also buy a digging bar, which I did. He knew what he was doing. For four or five holes, I was switching between the auger, the bar, and the clamshell digger. It got pretty hot out there in the sun, and I wasn't making much progress. I'd work 45 minutes, and then rest for 15, and it was miserable.

Then Doorlink got home from work. She watched me for a few minutes, and then said "let me get the deck umbrella." I thought it was silly, but it was actually a major improvement. Then she watched the process for one hole, and said "let me see that clamshell thing." After looking at it, she said "The bolts are loose... it's making you work too hard." I thought that was silly too, but it was time for my 15 minute rest. So we went up to the shop, got some washers (the handles were losing the battle with the bolts), and tightened up the thing. While we had it apart, I got out the old angle grinder, and sharpened up the edges.

Then back to work in the sun. I dug, she held the umbrella and the lemonade (actually, we were out of lemonade, so she mixed lime and cranberry juice, odd but good). The next hole went a lot faster. It wasn't until it was done that I realized I hadn't even bothered with the auger. And then the next, and the next. I wasn't even close to halfway done when she got the silly idea we should tune the thing up, but after that it went really fast. I dug, she kept the umbrella from tipping over, and when there was a rock she'd reach down and get it out. All the way along the back line, turned the corner, up the hill towards the house. Between the clamshell and the digging bar we went through rocks, roots, and hardpan in record time.

Then we got to the hole for one of the gateposts. THUNK! A rock, A BIG rock. We both worked on it, finally she found the edge. I leaned on the digging bar, and the earth started to move. I said "See if you can get your hands around it." She could, but couldn't move it. So we traded places. So there I was, hot, sweaty, exhausted, with the evening coming on, on my knees in the dirt with my arms around a round 18" rock, and there she was, in her silk blouse, pearls, long skirt, and heels, leaning all 115 pounds of herself on that digging bar, and WHOOMPF, it finally came up. I pushed it out, and it went rolling down the hill like a crazed basketball... ;)

Then it was time for the last two holes, the ones right next to the house. One was fairly easy, but on the other, back near the pines, there were roots, rocks, construction debris, and I kept worrying we were hitting the foundation. Besides, by that time, I was completely spent, my arm was screaming pain so bad I could barely lift the digger, and so she did most of it. But she was so determined to get it done I kept expecting her to take off one of her highheels and start grubbing out the rocks with that! We got done just in time to pack up the auger and run it back to the rental place.

So I have a piece of hard-earned advice: no matter how tempting it is to rent a power auger, don't bother. Tune up your clamshell, sharpen the edges, and get a good digging bar. Oh, and you'd be amazed how much you can get done if you have a pretty girl holding the umbrella! ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
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:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Here's to pretty girls and lemonade!

So you've got the holes, but what are you putting in them? I don't think you actually said what kind of fence you're putting in. Digging the holes is tough, but pounding the dirt back in around the posts ain't no picnic either. BTDT. :zzz:
 
The posts are 8 feet, I'm sinking them 18 inches. The fence will be 60", and I'm thinking of leaving the last 18" of post, just so I can add trellis later if I need it...

I just noticed this when reviewing the thread.

:huh: I thought the general rule for fences was one foot down for every two feet up. I'm pretty sure that I bought 9' poles when I was helping putting in a 6' fence wayyy back 11-12 years ago.

(I just googled and found several pages that agree with me that approx 1/3 of the fence post should be buried. So with 18" in the ground you'd only have a 3' fence, Bill. I hope that was a typo on your part.)
 
Art,

Yikes! Two and a half feet for a five foot fence? Thank goodness this is DC, and not slippery rock! Here, the frost line is, like, one inch deep. And we're talking wire fence, not a windscreen privacy fence. Let's see, what other excuses can I make up? ;)

Besides, it's too late. Today, we went out and bought 27 4x4s. Then we went around and cut them individually, so they stick up 60".

I know that wouldn't last a winter in Canada, but it should be fine here. The fence I built in Tennessee was still standing, last time I checked, and that *was* a privacy fence... and winters there are much worse than here...

Now I'm worried... but it's too late to do anything but hope... :(

Thanks,

Bill
 
Congrats on getting the holes dug, Bill. :thumb: The ol' two-handled PHD is one of my least favorite tools to use, but they do a task not many other tools can do.
 
I know that wouldn't last a winter in Canada, but it should be fine here. The fence I built in Tennessee was still standing, last time I checked, and that *was* a privacy fence... and winters there are much worse than here...

I was in Edmonton when I last helped build a fence and the frost line is far deeper than the 3' that we put in the fence. I don't think it is the frost line, but just a depth to resist wind, leaning, tension, etc. (yup, googled and found others who said it isn't the frost line that is the issue for fences.)

This is what I find when googling "fence post depth".

Link 1: "Set all wood fence posts with about 1/3 of their total length buried in the ground. This is especially important on corner posts and any posts that will carry heavy weight or withstand high wind pressure."

Link2: "A general rule of thumb is to place 1/3 of the length of the post in the ground. Use a diameter of 10"-12" for all postholes. We also suggest burying all gate posts, end posts, and corner posts 6" deeper than the other posts, especially in areas with high wind or extreme weather."

Link3 -- this one says bury 1/4 of the depth

Link4: Lowes: "The best practice is to put 1/3 of the post in the ground. Using a posthole digger or power auger, dig the holes 10-12" wide and 6" deeper than needed. Backfill each hole with 6" of gravel to drain water away from the bottom of the post. If your fence required a permit, the depth may be specified there."

I tried looking for the specific Washington DC Fence Bylaw, but couldn't find it in the few minutes I spent. I also did not try to find anything specific about your "wire" fence that you plan. (I'm not sure what you mean by a "wire" fence either.)

Sorry to post a negative post, Bill. I'm not at all a fence contractor, I've only built a fence once, but I would just really hate for you to put in all this work and then have the fence lean and look ugly in a year or two. By all means, check around to see what other skilled professionals advise, especially someone in your area.
 
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Art,

I'm certain you're right. I don't doubt you at all. But I'm already in for a penny, and in fact in for many pounds. At this point, I've just got to hope it works out... and I think maybe it will.

But checking some of those links you sent made me wonder if I shouldn't be doing gravel instead of concrete. The worry is that the clay would infiltrate the gravel, and the posts would work loose.

I just went out and took some pictures, but for some reason can't get them to upload. I'll try again later...

The wire is 60" tall mesh... the mesh is 1" by 2". It's pretty rigid stuff (I hate working with wire, but it will keep dogs and a three year old contained. I'll have to stretch it, and that will put some force on the posts, but the 2x4 laterals will counter that. I'm going to cut it, rather than trying to turn the corners, so that should help with the corner posts. There will be three gates, those will probably be the worst of the stresses.

More later, after a nightmare dental visit...

Thanks,

Bill
 
In Edmonton, we used PT 4x4s, just in dirt. We threw a shovel of gravel in the bottom of the hole, to help a bit with drainage, and to keep the base (end grain) of the 4x4 from being able to stand in water. Then just rammed the earth around the post -- pounded it with a 6' 2x4 that we banged up and down. This fence was started by the neighbour who needed to move some old fence and we ended up putting in a fence to replace some old pines that were ripped out. He showed where the old fence, which was installed the same way, wouldn't budge at all. He didn't see the sense in concrete.

The issue i've heard with concrete is that the 4x4 will shrink/expand a bit with the seasons, and concrete won't, which results in crushed wood fibers. But even more, the odds are that your 4x4s are a bit wet and will shrink a bit, which gives a gap where water will just stand.

I knew a fellow and he used to throw in some sort of concrete/mortar mix into the hole and just mix it with the soil as he packed in the soil. He claimed that the moisture in the soil would help it set up the dirt a bit. I never was sure about that idea.

best wishes,
...art
 
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