Torsion box question. Now progress reports.

Man, this is going slower than usual! I got the sheet of MDF Friday on the way home from work. Lost a couple hours this am going to the Arlington shelter to look at a reported Irish Setter, but it was a mix, so had to pass. Man that is SOOO hard to do.
Started cutting the MDF about noon. After lunch and a visit from a friend from Florida, and her father, who lives south of Dallas, I went back to work. Let me tell you. DON'T use your table saw for your assembly table!!!! I got everything flat and ready, found some cuts I failed to make. AARRGGHHHH!! Take it a part, make the cuts, put it back together, and guess what???? Yep, more cuts I failed to make. I wasn't about to take things apart again, so I put my dad's ole RAS to use...didn't even check to see how far out of adjustment it was. But it did fine. In fact, I don't think I could get it that well tuned if I tried! So I have the first one dry fitted except for the top skin, and ready to put together. But I'll wait for that until tomorrow. Hope I have enough glue!! Jim.

Thanks Steve.
You know, I don't do well watching glue dry! I get restless, I want to undo clamps and go to the next step, even if I mess the next step up! At least I'm doing something!
Well, my little tankless compressor won't shoot the 18 guage brads in at an angle, so I have to shoot them straight in, which changes how I wanted to do this. I guess I'll bondo and sand the holes before laminating the top and edges. Right now the glue is drying on the splice of what will be either the top or bottom of the first box. I wanted to shoot the brads in at an angle so I could have a top that has no holes to fill, but that won't happen. And man, do I need more clamps!!! Well, it will just make me go slower and hopefully catch my mistakes before they are past the point of saving!
Hope everyone is having a good Sunday! Jim.

Updated again. pictures of 1st box. New question!!

Ok, here it is. I took a couple pictures along the way. This first shot shows the set-up with the temporary extension to the left of the saw to get 10' of flat surface. The second shows the patch for the joint in the top skins. I hope this is what you were talking about Charlie. This picture is a closer look at the end opposite of the patch. #4 is a blurry picture of the whole thing after one skin and the grid is glued and braded. And the final one is of the finished unit. My sides didn't come out as smooth as I wanted, but they will be ok. I'm pretty happy with the top surface. It's not perfectly flat according to my 5' cheapy straight edge, but not bad. I didn't check it again after I knocked off the high spots at the seams and did a light sanding all over, so it may have improved, or not.

OK, the new question...Do I need to prep the MDF for the laminate? Or just put the adhesive directly to the raw wood?
I'll do the next box next weekend. Probably prep the assembly surface again for it during the week. Maybe this one won't take as long? Assembly took about 5 hours today. Thanks for looking and all the comments and help! Jim.

Gee, Steve, that sounds like sanding!! I scraped the seam, and sanded with ROS before the last picture, I just didn't take the straight edge back to it. One evening this week I'll do the bondo "thang" to the indentions from the brad nailer, and go back with the ROS.
Thanks for the heads up on the adhesive and the raw MDF. I just wasn't sure if it might need some sanding sealer on it first or not. Jim.

Jim, I agree with Steve, and on MDF, only sand "LIGHTLY", just enough to knock off any glaze on the surface, (and truly, if you're using regular, "NOT WATERBASED" contact cement, I don't think you even need to sand unless there are rough spots).

Now, for the smoothest, AND easiest way to laminate the two together, lay the laminate upside down on the box and use a SHORT napped paint roller, and pour the laminate glue on the laminate, and then spread it and roll it out (all with the paint roller). Roll it til it is all an even thickness and starts getting tacky and make the last few strokes lengthwise, just like you were painting, and then move on down to the next area. When you are finished with the laminate, slide it off the box and do the same procedure on the box. When the glue is barely tacky, then lay dowels across the box and flip the laminate over and slide it onto the dowels, then align it and start working it down from the center toward each end, and this will help eliminate any bubbles/air pockets. I not only roll mine, but also use a flat block of wood and a hammer and pound it down all over, (Overkill, maybe, but it sure works for me.

Now another tip, you don't have to even clean up the roller, just put it into a heavy ziplock bag, (roller frame and all), and pour about a half cup of the thinner in it and stick it in a bucket out of the way, and when you want to use it for the other top, the cement will soften it and it will work again.

I've tried many methods but this one works the best of all. The most important part, being to use the roller to spread it out instead of trying to spread it with something else and then try to even it out with a roller, and oh yes, don't be bashful when pouring out the cement, as you want get it spread over a large area quickly before it starts to dry.

Good Luck, hope this helps.

Thanks Norman. I think you anticipated my next question before I did! I have watched laminate being installed on MDF before, and I knew about getting a J-roller for it, but I don't remember how he did the adhesive unless he sprayed it. Probably did spray, they always had that going for gluing fabric, but I just don't remember. I also knew about the wood strips. Doubt that I'll invest in dowels for this, although I do have a couple out there...might just be enough for the job. Thanks for the insights!! Jim.

Is the Laminate Done Yet????????

So Jim, is the laminate done yet, or have you been screwing aroung with sprinklers, roofing or tending DOGS?

You gotta get with the program now, 'cause we all want to know how it turned out. (since you've been kinda quiet for a few days, I am concerned that you got your shirt tail glued between the laminate and the MDF, and can't get through the door to get out of the shop).

Norman Hitt said:

So Jim, is the laminate done yet, or have you been screwing aroung with sprinklers, roofing or tending DOGS?

You gotta get with the program now, 'cause we all want to know how it turned out. (since you've been kinda quiet for a few days, I am concerned that you got your shirt tail glued between the laminate and the MDF, and can't get through the door to get out of the shop).

Click to expand...

No Norman, that's next weekends doings! I built one box last Sunday, got everything prepped for the second one on Wed. eve, and I'll put it together either this afternoon or tomorrow. I'm at work this am.
I took off a little early yesterday afternoon to get a new filter for the sprinkler system, lost pressure and it was 2 years old and very clogged up. Stopped by HD and looked for laminate...none except the pre built counter tops. They used to have it at their old store, but the new ones evidently don't. I'm taking off next Friday for several things, and will locate the laminate then and work on it.
You should know by now that I don't get in a hurry about anything, well, except growing old. Jim.

Jim O'Dell said:

No Norman, Stopped by HD and looked for laminate...none except the pre built counter tops. They used to have it at their old store, but the new ones evidently don't.

They don't carry it out here at the HD store anymore either, but the Lowes over in Midland does, (and probably does in your area too).

I'm taking off next Friday for several things, and will locate the laminate then and work on it. You should know by now that I don't get in a hurry about anything, well, except growing old. Jim.

Click to expand...

Boy, don't even mention being slow, I used to be pretty quick with all my projects, but I'm slower'n running Molases in -20* weather anymore. (My mind still "Thinks It", but the body just refuses to cooperate).

Yes, I stopped in the HD and Lowes in Weatherford after getting my hair cut yesterday, and Lowes does have a few sheets of either 3X8 or 4X8 material...white and a couple of multicolor. I was hoping for blue or preferrably light grey. So I'll hit the professional place on Friday after doing some other things I need to take care of.
I did assemble the second unit yesterday afternoon/evening. Will get out today and bondo the 3 zillion holes from the brad nailer, then decide what to do about straightening out the edges to get them flat. Have a good Sunday! Jim.

Another question...

Ok, I spent the day trying to bondo the brad holes, and worked on one of the edges for each to try to get a flat surface for the laminate to adhere to. Thus the question: Will the laminate cement and subsequent laminate stick to bondo? The sides were worse than I thought. After sanding, and maybe a little bondo touch up, they will be square to the top and bottom skins, but there is very little MDF peaking out from the edges. I've thought about taking some more MDF and making a piece for the visible edges and face them to have MDF to glue the laminate to, but I hate to change the dimensions, especially where it overhangs the center section where the various tools will go. Thanks for any further insight you can offer. Jim.

jim, you`re going a bit far ......plastic lamination,aka formica, will span holes left by a framing nailer with no ill effects. in fact i`ve regularly laminated over countersunk screws.......just slather some glue on both surfaces and stick `er together, you`ll be fine

Todd, after doing the bottoms of both, I quit, thinking it would be fine without it. The sides are where I'm having to use a lot of Bondo. My jig didn't hold the skins correctly and they didn't align to each other. I know better than to try to straighten them on the TS I have, so I'm using Bondo instead, with a speed square to skreed it perpendicular to the skins. Messy, but seems to work fine. Just want to make sure the laminate glue will adhere to the Bondo. If not, I need some 1/4" MDF to cover the sides with. Jim.

Stopped by Home Depot on the way home to check prices on 3 X 12 laminate sheets...74.00 plus a 15.00 charge per order. A little higher than I wanted, but not bad I guess. I will need 2 sheets. He asked if a green color would work. I really wanted grey, but said I would look. He has 4 X 8 sheets of this I could have for......$23.00 per sheet! HMMMMMM. I would have to seam it, which I'd prefer not to do. But for less than 1/3 the price, actually with the order charge, about 1/4 the price, I might be able to live with it. Might narrow down the future cabinet saw to Grizzly or General though. The Ridgid and MM grey looks good with it, as does black and the wood grain laminate on the slotwall material. The blue of my extension table clashes, but at that price I could recover it. I may still look around a little on Friday, knowing I can pick this up. He said if I would buy all the remaining 10 or so sheets, he'd throw in the display rack that holds it all.
And yes, I did look for laminate there last week and didn't see any. Jim.

If you are really anal , you can make a formica joint that virtually disappears. I did one in a kitchen years ago that I challenged people to find... outside of the game, it wasn't worth the time it took, but it can be done.

I wouldn't worry about contact cement sticking to bondo, or to anything (and everything) else. But the question in my mind would be whether you can pull a layer of bondo off (how strong it the bondo), or if the bondo could be pulled off the underlying mdf. Since I haven't used bondo, I don't have a gut feeling about those issues.

Charlie, I'm not afraid of the bondo releasing on it's own. I might whack it pretty hard and create a problem. My expereince, though limited, is that it holds pretty good, especially if there is a ledge to grab on to. A lot of mine is filling the recessed space between the 2 skins where they overhang the side grid panel. Although there is a fair amount that covers the end grain of either the top or bottom skin, but not both at the same place. Thanks for the help guys! Just wait until I get into real woodworking projects!! Jim.

Have you gone to a countertop place to price the formica? You might be able to get it for a better price.

Al, I'm taking off Friday from work for a few things. One will be to finalize the laminate. I will go by several places to check prices, one of which is a wholesale shop. We'll see if they will sell to me.
Steve, this is not a bad color, just darker than I would buy for this purpose, if the price was the same. And the Wilsonart brochure shows that it is the High Density laminate, and marked the premium grade both on the sample and in the brochure. Whatever that really means. I actually think the Incra LS positioner I have stored would look stunning on it, and plan to get an extra sheet in the next few weeks to keep just for the router table top. (My next project) I just hate to have the seams. So I will continue to look to make sure. And I somehow bet that the 23.00 price is cost. Same size sheet at Lowes was 46.00. Didn't catch what HD's regular price is on this. Might have to go sneak a peak. Thanks again! Jim.

Well, this one HD store evidently is the only one with any laminate left. No luck at the other places I tried, but I got a little stuck on trying to find that last elusive 6-6-4 wye for the ductwork, and ran out of time to look at some of the places I wanted to go. Was out from 9:15 to after 4:00 like it was.
So I got 2 sheets of the green stuff, and a gallon of adhesive. I have one 6" foam roller. Norman, will the thinner trick work on a foam roller? Or will it eat it up? If it disentegrates, I'll go get some more rollers. I need to go check and see if I have a trim bit...almost forgot about that! My guess, I don't. I still have some work to do before I get to the adhesive. I need to cut up 2 sheets of laminate. Jim.

ps: I forgot, the guy that helped me before with the price, helped me pick out 2 sheets that were the least damaged. One is perfect, one has a little ding on one side. I will make it the side that becomes the scrap after the last usuable cut. Some of the sheets had some major hits. I might see what they will take for those. sould still be plenty big enough for a router table. There were 18 or 19 sheets in there total, all the same color! So he takes me to the self check out, and of course the kid watching that area had to ring up the mark down price on the laminate. The price was way low. I asked him if he got the glue, he said yes. So I pay, get the receipt...only charged for one of the sheets of laminate. So I pointed it out to him and paid for the second sheet. Would have been a really good deal at 2 sheets for 23.00!!! But I would have known, and probably messed up both sheets cutting it up if I hadn't said something.

Jim, the thinner will eat up the foam roller, and also, the foam roller won't work nearly as good as a short nap smooth regular roller. The reason is that you will be making the final light smoothing passes (all in the lengthwise direction) with the roller when it starts getting tacky, (which is what you want), and the foam roller would try to pull apart and not leave an even finish. When I do this, the adhesive coating ends up very even, with no lumps or ridges, but I guess you could call the surface kinda rough like a highly magnified eggshell, (I don't know how else to describe it), and with this type surface on both pieces it REALLY sticks together well, then roll and use the wood block and hammer, and you sure won't have to worry about it ever coming loose.

Keep us posted, and Holler if you've got any more questions.

Ps: I just thought of something else that might be helpful, especially when laminating large/long pieces. I Screw or clamp a long straight board that is about an inch thicker than the base and laminate onto a table, bench or whatever I'm doing the laminating on to use as a Backer/Fence, then I mark the center of of it's length with a felt tip marker. Next, I lay a spacer on the table against that Backer/fence. The spacer should be the width of the Overhang I have allowed for each edge of the laminate and thin enough that it only comes part way up the thickness of the Base material to be laminated. Next, I measure and center the base material on the center mark of the Backer/fence and push it up against the spacer. Now I measure and mark the center of the length of laminate, and when I lay the laminate on top of the dowels, (or whatever you use for spacers to keep the two pieces apart til you're ready to stick them together), I center the mark on the laminate with the mark on the backer, and push the laminate up against the Backer/fence, and that keeps everything perfectly aligned as I start pressing the two pieces together, starting out by rolling "across" the laminate at the center and and then rolling from the center out toward one end, then go back to the center and roll toward the other end.

I came up with this method after having a piece shift and not cover properly one time, and I have never had a problem since I started doing it this way, and it sure makes it easier, especially on large or long pieces working by yourself. Hope this helps.