Boat Guys...How Would You Fix This?

Vaughn McMillan

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A co-worker of mine recently purchased a used Nor'Sea 27 sailboat, and although it's in generally decent shaope, there is a certain amount of fixing up to be done. Here's the first of what will likely be multiple requests for opinions and suggestions. Todays topic: The Tiller.

The tiller is laminated wood (oak, maybe...perhaps ash?) and there are a couple places where the laminations are coming apart, and one spot where the wood has rotted.

Here's the overall view:

Tiller 06 800 R Annotated.jpg

And a closer view of the (slightly) delaminated area:

Tiller 03 800.jpg

There is a little bit of rot associated with the delamination, but it appears to be minor, and fixable with epoxy injection. Suggestions?

Tiller 04 800.jpg

Then there's the bigger rotted "hole" at the other end of the tiller:

Tiller 01 800.jpg

And a bit closer view:

Tiller 05 800.jpg

And one more look:

Tiller 09 800.jpg

We have thought of a few ways to fix this spot, most of which involve scarfing another piece (or pieces) of wood onto the tiller to replace the rotted material.

Here are some very rough sketches ot the two main ideas we've kicked around.

Tiller Repair Details.jpg

My buddy's not trying to restore it to original condition (if he was, we'd be building a completely new tiller), but he'd like it to look decent when we're done. No baling wire and 2x4s. ;) Any ideas or suggestions?
 
If it is going to be used in the ocean I say a new build a new tiller. That is not the place to have things go wrong. With the tiller in that kind of shape I would be worried about the rest of the boat. If it were me I would have a very good surveyor go over that boat before I risk my life in it and even that is no gurantee. Also the rigging might look good but all of it should be replaced. I was dismasted in a 48 foot ketch and we were lucky no one was killed or even injured so I am really leary. Thru hull fittings are another danger. My boat was eventually struck by lighting in the middle of the night and it blew out a thru hull fitting and it sunk at the dock. A total loss. Thank goodness it was not at sea. The ocean is no place to be saying "boy, I sure wish that I had". Older seagoing boats can be a real danger. Shortcuts are not acceptable here.
 
If it is going to be used in the ocean I say a new build a new tiller. That is not the place to have things go wrong. With the tiller in that kind of shape I would be worried about the rest of the boat. If it were me I would have a very good surveyor go over that boat before I risk my life in it and even that is no gurantee. Also the rigging might look good but all of it should be replaced. I was dismasted in a 48 foot ketch and we were lucky no one was killed or even injured so I am really leary. Thru hull fittings are another danger. My boat was eventually struck by lighting in the middle of the night and it blew out a thru hull fitting and it sunk at the dock. A total loss. Thank goodness it was not at sea. The ocean is no place to be saying "boy, I sure wish that I had". Older seagoing boats can be a real danger. Shortcuts are not acceptable here.
Thanks Allen and Jeff...

I've not seen the boat in person (and wouldn't really know what I was looking for if I did), but my buddy did have a qualified surveyor check out the boat before he bought it. Not only have the problem areas been identified, but the cause of the problem has been found and noted for each. I do believe he's planning to replace all the rigging, and knowing this guy and his perfectionist tendencies, he'll make sure things are sound before getting the boat out on open water.

Having seen the tiller in person, I have no doubt that it can be repaired as opposed to replacement.
 
Vaughn, by the time you go to all the trouble to fix that tiller, you can have a new one made. You already have that one to make a form from. That way it's done, done right, and done permanently! I just think that's one of those cases that you aren't going to save anything by patching it. Besides the patchwork fix will always show and be obvious!
 
By the way, I was showing this to Dad. H is suggestion is to use mahogany and maybe white oak. Use epoxy to wet out the surfaces and use epoxy with some thickener to glue them together. Make a form for both sides so you can clamp it tight. You can taper it down after its glued up.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
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Hi Vaughn, I've done quite a bit of boat work in the past...

I'm not certain but I'll bet the tiller is Ash, especially by looking at the really rotted part.

White Oak stands up much better in a marine environment than Ash (a cheaper look a like substitute). It looks like once the finish coat wore through the weather really started to do it's thing.

There are different products around such as "Git-Rot", "Rot Doctor" etc.

The main principle of these products is to thin the epoxy so it is more readily absorbed deeper into the wood.

You can use regular epoxy and thin it with up to 10% styrene which will lower the viscosity and allow deeper penetration. I've worked on wooden boats in the past where I've painted the whole inside of the hull with polyester resin thinned with styrene (need good ventilation and respirator) and that effectively stopped all deterioration and restored things.

I would sand the whole piece down, remove all finish and the rot (agree with Tod here on second scarf method) use a thinned epoxy (either your own or one of the products above) and paint it on the entire tiller soaking as much as you can into the cracks around the delamination and the rotted areas. Let that dry real well, apply your scarf using normal epoxy and "fill" any cracks or voids with the same. Next shape your scarfed in piece to match then sand and finish with two or three coats of good quality spar varnish with uv protection (more coats are better). In the marine environment "brite work" should be scuff sanded and recoated every spring.
 
Vaughn

I've owned boats for the past 40 years. If that were my tiller I would replace it. There are simply too many problem areas, many appear to be in the area where the tiller attaches to the rudder. If I remember that boat correctly, that tiller goes over the aft cabin to the rudder. The cockpit is sort of amidships. So, the lever arm on the tiller is real long and all the stress will be at the attachment to the rudder.

Make a new one, make it strong. You don't want the owner to be worrying about that thing giving way when he is out in 40 knots at night in the rain. Trust me, he may not have planned it, but it will happen! Been there, done that, threw the T shirt away.

Jay
 
I would have to agree with the others and say replace it. This is effectively a structural part of the boat. It is under the most load when the wind is high and when it is most critical to have working steering.

The dutchman idea would be alright but since the thing has begun to rot, its difficult to identify how far the rot really goes. Better not to find out.

Make a form and laminate a new one using epoxy as was mentioned. White oak is a good idea and it looks nice with mahogany. Before applying epoxy to the WO, wipe the wood down with acetone. Don't thicken the epoxy too much. Make it like thin mayonaise. Do a first coat on all the pieces with straight epoxy (slow hardener) before buttering them with the thicker stuff. Don't use massive amounts of pressure when clamping up or you'll just drive the epoxy out. You only want enough to close up the gaps.
 
Well, it looks like the majority opinion is to replace it. I'll pass the recommendation on to my buddy, and we'll see which way he wants to go. (Maybe I should sign him up here so he can ask questions directly.) ;)

Making a new one is doable with the tools I have and it's within my skill level.
 
An interesting thread, this one. I agree with the "go new" guys. There will be lots of stress on that tiller, and the white oak laminated with epoxy will be much better able to withstand it than the repair.
 
The easy part is over,

but how do you go about making the new tiller? Given that you make a laminated tiller, what directions do the laminations run, perpendicular to the transom, or parallel?

I vote for parallel to the transom. That way you have the most stress on the widest part of a single layer, and the least on the epoxy glue line. For a finish, I would coat the completed package in epoxy. If you need to drill holes for bolts, epoxy a brass/bronze bearing sleeve into the hole and be sure it seals the wood.

How to laminate it? Refer to one of David Mark's programs where he deals with bent laminate legs.

Boat: a hole in the water into which you pour money.
 
Deinitely, the laminations should be horizontal. After you get the tiller shaped and varnished, put some cockscombing or French spiral hitching on the handle portion. Finish the end with a Turk's head.

b23_02.jpg


scot_11.jpg


Image27.jpg

Image28.jpg
 
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More thoughts

Vaughn

Thought of something else when I was in the shower -- funny how water running over my head gets me thinking!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It looks like part of the problem was caused by bad bedding in the bolt holes going through the tiller.

So, after you build the new one (we know you're going to!) consider drilling holes that are about 1/4' larger than the actual bolts. Tape one side, lie the tiller flat and fill the holes up from the other side with expoxy. After it kicks, redrill with the correct hole size. You have now created a nice watertight sleeve through the tiller. (That is if you didn't have airbubbles in the mix when you filled it up. A syringe might eliminate that occurance.)

I would still be careful and use good bedding compound (marine speak for caulking compound) 5200 is really great you can get it at any West Marine -- rumor has it that there are a few in CA!

Frankly if your buddy doesn't want you to build a new tiller, I would walk away from this project -- you won't be doing him any favors by patching that old tiller. Good luck

Jay
 
Another option is something I did for a broken tiller. (sunfish sail boat) was to sand the whole thing and fill any holes with wood that looked close and then take fiberglass cloth and cover the whole thing with resin. It will dry clear.
 
My vote is to make Or have made a new Tiller. Less work in the long run and reliable that it will hold up. Tis never a good Idea, at sea, (or even a couple of miles from the ramp) to have a PATCH in control of the boat.
 
Well?`

Vaughn

Inquiring minds want to know! After all this learned advice what did your buddy decide?

Can't leave us hanging out here in cyberland dude, we need closure! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
I've decided to replace the tiller. While the tiller, like quite a few aspects of the boat, is truly overbuilt and I have little doubt it could be repaired safely, the repair would be difficult to do without the result looking patched. I have concluded that by the time I was done stripping the old varnish, repairing rot and old screw holes and refinishing the tiller, I would have put in more work than the old tiller is worth. I would rather put more work into something I am proud of.

I am considering laminating the new tiller from alternating strips of white oak and mahogany. I am also debating designing, casting and machining a pair of bronze fittings to be used where the tiller attaches to the uprights on the rudder so it has a good hinge and so I can adjust the angle of the tiller so it sits above the top of the aft cabin hatch.

I'll post progress and pictures as this progresses--though if I do the bronze castings, they probably won't be done soon.
 
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