Crosscut chipping on oak ply - how to avoid - morphed from Duraline post.

Rennie Heuer

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This was the "Forrest Duraline" thread, but it morphed into "how to avoid chipping when crosscutting oak ply".

Anyone have experience with this blade?

Forrest Duraline Blade Hi-A/T 10" x 80 Tooth

I have a Woodworker II that I love, but I'm cutting up some $120 a sheet plywood. The WWII does a very good job on veneers for a combo blade, but there is some minor chipping. Normally I would not mind too much if it's really minor, but this is for a customer and the ply will be edged in solid oak. I really don't want to have any chips ruining that mating edge.

If I chip out the veneer and have to buy another sheet I will have nearly covered the cost of the blade and have nothng to show for it but scrap.:dunno:

What say yee older and wiser (well, maybe just wiser) woodworkers?
 
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rennie you can make a bad cut with any brand of blade,, i have the ww2 combo and feel the frueds do as well in the upper line of there blades. keep the good side up and have your saw set right and you should be good to go. plus you could still joint to get a smoooth edge. say on your RT or jointer.
 
rennie you can make a bad cut with any brand of blade,, i have the ww2 combo and feel the frueds do as well in the upper line of there blades. keep the good side up and have your saw set right and you should be good to go. plus you could still joint to get a smoooth edge. say on your RT or jointer.
I don't remember having a lot of success jointing plywood - but it's worth a shot. I might try that on some scrap tonight and see how it works. Even so, if the veneer chips out further back than 1/32" jointing the edge won't help.:dunno:
 
I spoke to Charles at Forrest and he suggested I first try setting the blade much lower, a little more than the top tooth showing, and use a slower feed rate. So, before I drop that cash, I think I'll do some trial cuts tonight and see if I can get the WWII to perform just a wee bit better. :D
 
I spoke to Charles at Forrest and he suggested I first try setting the blade much lower, a little more than the top tooth showing, and use a slower feed rate. So, before I drop that cash, I think I'll do some trial cuts tonight and see if I can get the WWII to perform just a wee bit better. :D

Let us know what you find out, I would be interested to see if the blade height made the difference.
 
Hi Rennie - I've tried the Duraline 100T. It makes an excellent cut, like any top notch Hi-ATB blade (Freud LU80, Infinity Ultrasmooth, Ridge Carbide), and would indeed be ideal for expensive veneered ply. However, given the cost of the blade, it's limited functional range, and the fact that there are other methods to achieve the same result, I'd wouldn't recommend the Duraline as the best possible solution unless you plan to do a lot more of this type of work.

I'd score the cut with your WWII first, use a new ZCI, and see how you make out. If you happen to be in the market for a new blade and think you might like to improve your ply cutting capability, keep your eyes peeled for a good deal on a Hi-ATB blade...maybe even a general purpose Hi-ATB like the Infinity Super General or Freud Fusion.
 
Hi Rennie - I've tried the Duraline 100T. It makes an excellent cut, like any top notch Hi-ATB blade (Freud LU80, Infinity Ultrasmooth, Ridge Carbide), and would indeed be ideal for expensive veneered ply. However, given the cost of the blade, it's limited functional range, and the fact that there are other methods to achieve the same result, I'd wouldn't recommend the Duraline as the best possible solution unless you plan to do a lot more of this type of work.

I'd score the cut with your WWII first, use a new ZCI, and see how you make out. If you happen to be in the market for a new blade and think you might like to improve your ply cutting capability, keep your eyes peeled for a good deal on a Hi-ATB blade...maybe even a general purpose Hi-ATB like the Infinity Super General or Freud Fusion.
Thanks Scott - sound advice. I'm going to try what the fellow at Forrest recommended. I'm hoping that works and I can save some serious change!:D
I don't anticipate a lot of expensive ply cutting beyond the job I'm working on now, so it would be good to save the money for something I'd get more use out of. Like a router for my 'someday' router table.:thumb:
 
I spoke to Charles at Forrest and he suggested I first try setting the blade much lower, a little more than the top tooth showing, and use a slower feed rate. So, before I drop that cash, I think I'll do some trial cuts tonight and see if I can get the WWII to perform just a wee bit better. :D

Rennie, blade height can make a difference "sometimes", but the thing that I have found that seems to be the worst culprit for causing chipping, (if the blade is good AND sharp, is if the blade is just a smidgeon OFF from parallel to the Fence OR Mitre track, and the blade as it comes up through the cut on the back end will catch the top vaneer of the ply and cause chipping. You might double check that setup to see if it is Off just a tad, and like Larry said, (which I'm sure you know) cut with the Good side UP when cutting on a TS.

It really is Frustrating cutting today's plywoods when I can remember making several boxes for tools and test equipment for my uncle (42 years ago) just using plain old AC Plywood and cutting it on a 10" Craftsman contractors saw (set up outside in my Dad's backyard), using a Sears craftsman crosscut blade set VERY HIGH, and every cut was perfectly smooth without one chip or sawblade mark and the cuts looked like what you would expect on a good quality hardwood that had been planed with a jointer handplane. I think our tools "May" have gotten better, but the WOOD products sure haven't.

Good Luck.
 
if the blade is good AND sharp, is if the blade is just a smidgeon OFF from parallel to the Fence OR Mitre track, and the blade as it comes up through the cut on the back end will catch the top vaneer of the ply and cause chipping. You might double check that setup to see if it is Off just a tad

I took several evenings last week to double check the set up on every tool I'd be using for this project - including building a miter guage slot base for my dial caliper. The fence was just a bit off, but I thought I fixed it. I'll check again. Perhaps toe out a few thousanths? It's really hard to tell sometimes because the material we use as facing is not so flat as to not give various readings across its length.

I put a 3/4" phenolic plywood face on my rip fence because the UHMW was getting a bit chewed up. Even the phenolic varies a few thousanths as I slide the guage down the slot.

It's all very frustrating at times.:huh:
 
Test Results! Woodworker II, not Duraline

These results are with my WWII blade. Could not bring myselt to part with $150 :eek: for the Duraline until I tried a few tricks with the combo blade.

OK - 4 cuts.
2 with the blade set high, at least an inch above the top of the ply, one with tape, one with out.
Ditto for a low blade, just the top tooth exposed above the ply.
The results were surprising!

First, low without tape. Low, no tape.jpg the worst of all my cuts!
Next - low with tape Low, with tape.jpg not much better!:dunno::huh:
Here's high without tape High, no tape.jpg some very minor chipping, but not a bad cut.:)
Finally, high with tape High, with tape - Copy.jpg the best. Still not perfect, but better.

OK, all you sawdust sages, what's up? My tests show the opposite of what I was told to do. The fence was not used, so that's not to blame. What say yee?:dunno:
 
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first response

is its oak! that stuff as plywood for me has always done what your gettin.. my question to you rennie is why are you concerned with cut that you like.. you arent going to butt this upt to anything are you? if so the joint bewteen the two will show unless your banding it then you are going to have ,,well they are going to have a stain or finish that will fill any minor chip you have showed us thus far easily. there are more out there with much more wisdom than me but i think your ready to fly:thumb:
 
Rennie,

The last picture looks like you are just about there. One thing I saw in Scott's message that I didn't see response to was the zero clearance insert. Probably just an oversight, but just thought I'd bring it back into the mix on the outside chance it slipped by. Does the oak material that will go on the edges wrap around the ply or just butt up against it?

Good luck. You've got all the family behind you.
 
is its oak! that stuff as plywood for me has always done what your gettin.. my question to you rennie is why are you concerned with cut that you like.. you arent going to butt this upt to anything are you? if so the joint bewteen the two will show unless your banding it then you are going to have ,,well they are going to have a stain or finish that will fill any minor chip you have showed us thus far easily. there are more out there with much more wisdom than me but i think your ready to fly:thumb:
Yep - white oak. I know, it's the worst.

Rennie,

The last picture looks like you are just about there. One thing I saw in Scott's message that I didn't see response to was the zero clearance insert. Probably just an oversight, but just thought I'd bring it back into the mix on the outside chance it slipped by. Does the oak material that will go on the edges wrap around the ply or just butt up against it?

Good luck. You've got all the family behind you.
Yes, I used a zero clearance, but these cuts are on the top face, so it should not matter. All of the edges that I'm cutting down will not show, so some chipping there is not an issue.

I'll be putting a 2 1/2" border around the plywood, attached with glue and biscuits. So, it's important to me that the joint be tight and as few chips as possible.

Well, Larry's probably right. There too small to worry that much about.:dunno:
 
Well Rennie, your Blade High cut shows the best, and that procedure was what always seemed to work best for me with plywood, (and using about half to two thirds the feed speed as what I would normally use).
 
hey rennie,

good test, odd results. so let me get this straight...the chips you are showing occured when the good face was facing up on the saw right? so they were more or less caused by the blades teeth coming back up and not cutting down?

ok, how tight is your zci? was it custom made by yours truly for the wwII? if not i would suggest taking 30 min and making one out of some scrap wood planed down and cut to fit the slot. if you make one, and carefully plunge the blade up through it, the fit is perfect for that blade, thus no chipout.

you probably know that and have already done it, but i thought i'd throw it in there.

good luck
chri
 
Well Rennie, your Blade High cut shows the best, and that procedure was what always seemed to work best for me with plywood, (and using about half to two thirds the feed speed as what I would normally use).
I was a little surprised at the results myself. The results run contrary to common practice.:huh: None-the-less, high it will be.... with tape!

hey rennie,

good test, odd results. so let me get this straight...the chips you are showing occured when the good face was facing up on the saw right? so they were more or less caused by the blades teeth coming back up and not cutting down?

ok, how tight is your zci? was it custom made by yours truly for the wwII? if not i would suggest taking 30 min and making one out of some scrap wood planed down and cut to fit the slot. if you make one, and carefully plunge the blade up through it, the fit is perfect for that blade, thus no chipout.

you probably know that and have already done it, but i thought i'd throw it in there.

good luck
chri
OK - the chips occurred as the blade entered the TOP of the plywood, not coming up from the back of the blade. Yes, I have a ZCI, but I do not see how that would have any influence on the cut on the top of the wood.:huh: Certainly, chipping can be minimized on the bottom of the wood with the ZCI, but on top? How? Perhaps I'm just not reading this right?:dunno:

As noted earlier, the people at Forresst recommended I use a lower blade setting with the WWII. My tests, as simple as they may be, show this not to be the best approach. As far as I know the blade is sharp. I had it sharpened by Forrest a couple of years ago, which sounds like a long time, but there is probably less than 200' of cutting done with it as I have other, less expensive blades, I use for cutting when the results are less critical.

I'm confused, but the pictures tell the story. Norman, I'm glad to hear that others use the same technique with similar results. Thanks!:D

I'm going to change the title of the thread in hopes of getting some more input on this. I'd really like to know how others address this problem and what they'e done to combat it. Are my test methods at fault? Is it just the way oak plywood is - live with it?:dunno:
 
I've heard this helps, as well as scoring the cut. I'll test the tape theory tonight as well.:thumb:

I skip the tape and just draw an X-acto knife down the line. You don't have to cut real deep, just score the line. I don't do a lot of ply but when I do this gave me a dramatic improvement. It worked so well I use the technique on precision x-cuts in some hardwoods like red oak and ash as well with excellent results.
 
I skip the tape and just draw an X-acto knife down the line. You don't have to cut real deep, just score the line. I don't do a lot of ply but when I do this gave me a dramatic improvement. It worked so well I use the technique on precision x-cuts in some hardwoods like red oak and ash as well with excellent results.

Rennie, did you try the scoring method and I just missed it?
 
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