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Birth of a shop - The Final Trimester

Another two days of no posts...:doh:

I spent half the day yesterday doing some consulting work, and the rest shopping the components for my dust collection.

What I'll be unfolding in the next few days will be a completely home-built industrial-strength DC system. (At least I hope it sucks :rofl: )

I'm still in the design phase, but am getting much closer to my 'phase 1' design. I've made a few final decisions on certain components, but others are changing almost hourly.

As I make final decisions, I'm running and gathering parts. Here's one of several 'final' decisions I've made:

DSCN6141.jpg

That's the (probably) final layout of the plenum for the 'bag-house' I'm going to build. I might change the orientation of the collars, but I'm pretty sold on what you see. Those are 8" collars, laid out roughly 6" away from each other. There are a total of twenty, each of which will be topped by a 6' tall American Filter Fabric singed polyester filter bag. I'll be ordering the bags in the morning. :thumb:

The MAIN reason I'm doing it this way is $$$ COST $$$. For example, the plenum I'm building can be purchased from several vendors, but it comes at a cost. The cheapest I've found so far is between $600 and $700. Well, I got the collars wholesale, for under $100, and will build the actual plenum out of MDF for an additional cost of maybe $20. Add caulk and screws, and I'll have about $100-$120 into it, saving about $500. And that's only ONE COMPONENT. My planning, design, and shopping should net me equal or greater savings for the entire system.

And as I mentioned above, this is 'phase 1'. I'm designing evertyhing so that it can be changed, added to, reconfigured, etc...just in case... :rolleyes:

The only decision I'll be locked into will be the piping, which is why I'm still measuring, designing, modifying, and shopping price.

I'll post more as I make more 'final' decisions.

Thanks for your patience...;)
- Marty -
 
Art,

Phase 1 with a cyclone is a cost issue. I've looked at the Clear-vue MAX, but am worried that I'd still be pushing too much air for even that. I've been in touch with Bill and he thinks it would be ok. I'll be able to 'upgrade' to a cyclone if what I come up with doesn't work.

I'm almost done designing a chip collector/drop box, that while not as efficient as a cyclone, should do a fine job of keeping all but fines out of the bags.

We'll see how it works in the not too distant future. If it doesn't suck, phase 2 might come sooner than I planned...:dunno:

- Marty -

P.S. The bag house would remain WITH the cyclone. I don't like cartridge filters for large systems. Too many required, and too fragile/short-lived.
 
I'm guessing it would take 2 cyclones to handle the air Marty will be moving with that monster. Could be done.
Marty, what is the diameter of the bags? 6" from each other seems very close to me. The bags would have to be no larger than 14" in diameter when "blown up", and that wouldn't leave any room for air to flow away from them. If 14" or there about in diameter, I'd want to have a good 8" between each of them. I know that makes for a bigger plenum than you probably want. So I must be missing something here. Are they only 10" in diameter?
And are you ready to divulge where you are currently thinking about placing the plenum? That thing could be noisey, and take up some floor space. Glad to see you are working on the next item on the punch list. Anxious to see and hear about all the particulars as you solidify them. Jim.
 
Jim O'Dell said:
I'm guessing it would take 2 cyclones to handle the air Marty will be moving with that monster. Could be done.
Marty, what is the diameter of the bags? 6" from each other seems very close to me. The bags would have to be no larger than 14" in diameter when "blown up", and that wouldn't leave any room for air to flow away from them. If 14" or there about in diameter, I'd want to have a good 8" between each of them. I know that makes for a bigger plenum than you probably want. So I must be missing something here. Are they only 10" in diameter?
And are you ready to divulge where you are currently thinking about placing the plenum? That thing could be noisey, and take up some floor space. Glad to see you are working on the next item on the punch list. Anxious to see and hear about all the particulars as you solidify them. Jim.
Click to expand...

Jim,

As I said in my post, the bags are EIGHT inches in diameter. They don't expand all that much when 'inflated'. And in fact, it was the techs at American Filter Fabric that recommended 4"-6" seperation between bags.

As for location, that's one of the major things that's changing hourly! :doh: :huh: :dunno: Sharing anything now would be premature at best.

But, it won't be long for the 'final' details to unfold here. I'm about outta time (and patience!:rolleyes: )

- Marty -
 
Marty Walsh said:
Jim,

As I said in my post, the bags are EIGHT inches in diameter. They don't expand all that much when 'inflated'. And in fact, it was the techs at American Filter Fabric that recommended 4"-6" seperation between bags. snip
- Marty -
Click to expand...


Sorry, I guess I still don't see it. I do see where you say the collars are 8" in dia and the bags are 6' tall, but I'm not seeing the diameter of the bags mentioned. Maybe I don't know enough about bags and that they are always the same diameter as the collars they mount to. But anyway, that answers my question.
Oh, and in case you haven't figured it out yet, :rofl::rofl:, with dust collection systems, you'll finalize it, then it will still change about 10 times before you say the heck with it, it's going here!! Jim.
 
At the very real risk of getting into a DC cyclone debate, I'll just say this......

I'm not on the scale that you are Marty, but, my cyclone has had so little dust to the filters, that I expect them to last a VERY long time. If a cyclone is designed correctly, then you should not have a ton of chips and stuff hitting your filters.

You could certainly design a large enough cyclone to do the job, but I imagine it might be taller than your shop, and cost a heck of a lot of money to build?

The filter house you are building will work fine, but it will never have anywhere near the total filtration area of a few good cartridge filters, not going to happen.

I do have total confidence that you will work it out and you will get it working.

Good luck.
 
stu, with martys sized blower a cyclone would have to be pretty large and costly.....but cyclone or not the bag vs pleated filters issue is one that thousands of commercial set-ups have allready answered....pleated filters are not a cost effective, long lived alternative to replace bags in a commercial enviornment...if they where industry would have addopted them already.....for a hobbiest in their garage with real space constraints and infrequent air exchanges they`re a decient alternitive untill the hobbiest starts generating major amounts of sawdust then he`ll have to reevaluate the cost vs capibility equation..marty is leaving the cyclone option open with the designs he`s working on, he`s just trying to shoestring a d/c system untill he`s able to have the shop provide some income.....tod
 
Marty,

I'm sure you are aware of this, and have considered it, but, I'll throw it out here anyways.

I,over the years have attended many auctions of woodshops going out of business. The one item that never, ever brings big money is the cyclone dust collection system. Why, because of the time and effort required to move them.

We purchased several cyclones for our shop, sometimes as cheap as $50.00. Very worth the time and effort to take em down and put em back up.

So, while you are under a time crunch, I would suggest you get on some of the more local auction lists and keep an eye out for an opportunity. Build your bag house to get you by until you find a cyclone.

Too bad I sold one about the size you are talking about, with a smallish cyclone (it actually was inside my shop), 10hp/18" impeller for $100. Took 3 guys about 2 hours to remove it.

Doug
 
Doug,

I'd LOVE to find a woodshop going out of business and being auctioned. A cyclone isn't the only thing I could use but can't afford...:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the only auctions I see around here are for farm equipment. I have seen a few cyclones for sale, but I don't think a two or three story grain cyclone would server me very well! :eek: :doh:

I'm open for suggestions if you're aware of any auction sites that might help. I watch the govliquidators auction, but not much there...:dunno:

Thanks...
- Marty -


Oh, by the way, I have the plenum about 60% complete. I'll post pictures tomorrow, when it's (hopefully) finished...
 
Ask and ye shall receive

Marty,

Hope I don't violate any rules here. I am an auctioneer in Ohio and I have a tool auction this

Sunday April 1. Here is a link to the sale. There is a DustKop cyclone collector in the sale.

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=270612&kwd=


This is all from a working shop that the heirs are selling. I did see the unit run while I was in the shop. It is probably 12-15 feet tall I guess. I would include a photo but I am on dialup tonight. There are pictures on the site above. Send me a PM if you have any questions.

I know we are not in your backyard, Suburb of Columbus Ohio to be more precise.

Full Disclosure: I do stand to profit from the sale of this equipment as I am one of the auctioneers.
 
Regarding the bag filters...

Marty,


For what it is worth...I in a chemical plant making a plastic resin. We have many baghouses using felt or Gore-tex bags of the 6-8" diameter variety.

They will pass more than enough air for the blower your are is using. Many of our baghouses have fewer than 20 bags in them and use much larger blowers than the one he has. Those 20 bags will have more than 251 square feet of surface area to alllow air to pass through.

They will also pass fine dust, probably more than you will want. This is where the Gore-tex variety bags can help but they are pricey. If you could position your plenum near a door way with an outgoing air flow it would significantly reduce the amount of dust that finds its way into your shop. Also, the bags' filter efficiency will increase dramatically as a dust cake builds on the inside of the bag. Do not clean them too well. They will work much better if you only remove the large chips and any material laying in the bottom of the sock.

Unfortunately you will deal with the unpleasant job of emptying those bags until he gets a cyclone. A separator will help some but probably will not have near the efficiency of a cyclone.

Good luck with the design. This will get you a good quality, working system to get up and running. A cyclone can always be added later. I will caution you that a decent pleated filter will be a much cleaner long term solution than the bags. The pleated filter simply is able to filter small material out of an airstream. There are industrial quality pleated filters available.

Greg
 
Jeff Kerr said:
Marty,

Hope I don't violate any rules here. I am an auctioneer in Ohio and I have a tool auction this

Sunday April 1. Here is a link to the sale. There is a DustKop cyclone collector in the sale.

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=270612&kwd=


This is all from a working shop that the heirs are selling. I did see the unit run while I was in the shop. It is probably 12-15 feet tall I guess. I would include a photo but I am on dialup tonight. There are pictures on the site above. Send me a PM if you have any questions.

I know we are not in your backyard, Suburb of Columbus Ohio to be more precise.

Full Disclosure: I do stand to profit from the sale of this equipment as I am one of the auctioneers.
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Thanks for the teaser, I mean link...:rolleyes:

Too bad it's about a twelve hour drive from me...:rolleyes:

I'll keep watching for viable auctions...but in the mean time, I'll keep working on my home-made system.

Thanks again...
- Marty -
 
hello marty and denise :wave:

i cant tell you how much i have enjoyed this entire thread /timeline on the birth of your studio ;) i have spent probably 8 or 9 hours just going through all the pages (4 just this morning).this must be a thread record for any forum :D

i just wanted to say i am very impressed with a number of things and the way you work : craftsmanship, ingenuity, the way you have planned and executed each phase of your project , and especially how denise is right in there with you getting it done. (i still dont know how you accomplished this :huh: ). the LOML wont come out in the shop until its time for the reveal of whatever i am working on :dunno: .

i have learned alot and am looking foward to the rest of this thread along with everyone else. i think it is safe to say i am officially hooked :eek: keep up the great work :thumb:
 
Marty, we have two or three "major" auction houses here in Portland that I subscribe to and I can't imagine that somewhere in Georgia (that's where you are, right?) that there are not at least as many. Probably Atlanta.

What you are looking for is that medium size cabinet shop or furniture mfg that gives up, we still get half a dz a year around here.

I have attended the auctions as far as No. WA...300 miles and as far south as the CA border to attain the right piece of equipment.

It may not happen overnight, but it is worth the effort to get on the upcoming auction lists so that you can at least see what is happening. Some now even have on line, live auction opportunites where you can almost be there and still purchase. I know all of them will take phone bids, again, sometimes live.

I was looking the other day and there is one coming up in central WA that I may attend just for fun, May 2nd. They don't have a cyclone listed, just bag house, but they do have a Altendorf F90 sliding table saw.

Doug

Marty Walsh said:
Doug,

I'd LOVE to find a woodshop going out of business and being auctioned. A cyclone isn't the only thing I could use but can't afford...:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the only auctions I see around here are for farm equipment. I have seen a few cyclones for sale, but I don't think a two or three story grain cyclone would server me very well! :eek: :doh:

I'm open for suggestions if you're aware of any auction sites that might help. I watch the govliquidators auction, but not much there...:dunno:

Thanks...
- Marty -


Oh, by the way, I have the plenum about 60% complete. I'll post pictures tomorrow, when it's (hopefully) finished...
Click to expand...
 
Hi Marty,
I only live about 40 miles from where that auction will be. Also have a sister in Tennessee that I want to go see. Would anyone know how much that weighs? I have a trailer that could haul it if fitted on properly. If you are interested, just let me know. I have absolutely no idea of it's worth.
Watching your site always,
Chuck
 
Mike Gabbay said:
Marty - here are some Oneida specials that may come in handy.... The 7.5 hp Baldor seems like a nice price for new.

http://store.oneida-air.com/sub-category.asp?CID=160
Click to expand...

Mike,

Perhaps you've forgotten...

I already have a 7.5 hp motor with a Cincinatti Fan blower/impeller attached! And I paid $25 more than Onieda wants for just the motor! :thumb:

FWIW, Onieda is ANYTHING but cheap/inexpensive. They're one of the highest of the vendors I've been shopping.

Thanks anyway...
- Marty -
 
jim capozzi said:
hello marty and denise :wave:

i cant tell you how much i have enjoyed this entire thread /timeline on the birth of your studio ;) i have spent probably 8 or 9 hours just going through all the pages (4 just this morning).this must be a thread record for any forum :D

i just wanted to say i am very impressed with a number of things and the way you work : craftsmanship, ingenuity, the way you have planned and executed each phase of your project , and especially how denise is right in there with you getting it done. (i still dont know how you accomplished this :huh: ). the LOML wont come out in the shop until its time for the reveal of whatever i am working on :dunno: .

i have learned alot and am looking foward to the rest of this thread along with everyone else. i think it is safe to say i am officially hooked :eek: keep up the great work :thumb:
Click to expand...


Jim,

Glad I can provide you with some reading/entertainment. As I've said in the past, I've learned alot from those that have gone before me building a shop, so I felt I HAD to share my adventure. If just a few people pick up a trick or two that I share, well...my time here has been well spent! ;)

As for Denise being by my side every step of the way...hmmm...what can I say? I'm lucky...that's all! :thumb:

- Marty -
 
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