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So, what's your angle?

Rennie Heuer

Rennie Heuer

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Constantine, MI
Some time back, based on a recommendation I got here on the forum, I retired my Wixey angle finder (which ate expensive batteries like nobody's business) and went with the Beal Tool Tilt Box II. Overall I've been happy with it but it has an idiosyncrasy that drives the OCD part of me to distraction. I can zero out on the table topp and then, depending on which of the three magnetized sides I affix to the blade, I can get three different readings. I contacted Beal and did get a quick response but it was somewhat less thatn I expected.

My note to him - " This has been so since I purchased the unit. I compensate by always using the same face when checking angles. However, I'm guessing this is not the way it should work. Should not all three faces give the same information? See attached. "

His reply - "I think they probably should but don't know what you could do about it.

Thanks,

JR"

Like I said, less than I expected.




IMG_0698.JPEG


IMG_0701.JPEG

IMG_0700.JPEG

IMG_0699.JPEG
 
Are the magnets not all at the same depth? maybe protrude slightly differently on different sides? I don't know, just a thought. I am surprised at the response you got.... That would make me more upset than the errors of the gauge... I would think they would at least offer to send you new one,,,, it may do the same but at least they tried to help. I have an older Wixey that ate batteries... I alway removed the battery when not using it. I have a new one that came on my Seyco saw and it does not seem to use up the batteried.
 
Being that I have worked in manufacturing all my life, I always thing in terms of tolerances. If I design something and then sent it out to the machinist his first question is - How close to these dimensions do you want this? It is then up to me to answer that question. What do I need? How close is close enough? Do I want it to be within +/-.0001 or is it good enough at +/-.01. The tighter the tolerance the more expensive it is.

So - on angles I would routinely spec out +/-.5 degrees. That is pretty common as a manufacturing tolerance.

If something needed to be closer than that, I would spec it out, but I also know that there would need to be a manufacturing "process" in house or I would need to find an outside vendor and sub the job out, and THAT, gets really expensive.

Sooooooo - what is to be expected on a gage to set a saw blade? An angle discrepancy of (.25) 1/4 of a degrees could be pretty doggone good, but it depends on how far from the vertices you measure from. If you project a 1/4 degree out to 4 feet - that could be a lot. If you are projecting 2 inches, maybe it's OK.

The manufacturer should have specs on the accuracy of the instrument. Maybe they don't claim any better than 1/2 degree, then, you are within spec. If they claim better than 1/4 degree (which is pretty good!), then you should call the manufacturer.

Soooo - the math
.25 degrees measured at 12" from the vertex is .052 inches (pretty small - less than 1/16)
.25 degrees measured at 6" from the vertex is .026 inches (less than 1/32)
.25 degrees measured at 3" from the vertex is .013 inches (less than 1/64)
.25 degrees measured at 1" from the vertex is .004 inches (a thick piece of paper)

Overall, I would say that your gage is good!

If I were using it - I would split the difference and feel REALLY good about it.

Then again - how rock solid is the blade while tilted and does it flex a little bit during cutting with the cutting forces. We could try doing a force vector analysis to determine the rigidness of the machine and process on your saw.
 
Yeah, not sure what to think of that message, not something I'd be happy about.

Could ask them to update the Accuracy Claim on their page once again... to .2 5or .3. :D

"Note About Accuracy: The original Tilt Box was advertised as having a resolution of .05 and an accuracy of .1. While this was (and remains) true of many of the units, it is not, we have discovered with time, true of all of them, and so, for the sake of accuracy, we are now downgrading our claims to the more realistic .2 of a degree. "
 
Leo Voisine said:
The manufacturer should have specs on the accuracy of the instrument. Maybe they don't claim any better than 1/2 degree, then, you are within spec. If they claim better than 1/4 degree (which is pretty good!), then you should call the manufacturer.
Click to expand...
The mfg. claims accuracy to +/- 0.2 degrees.
 
The response from Beal was from customer service - not engineering. Customer service people "should" contact engineering but more often then not, they do not. It is aggregating. BTDT As an engineer, I have heard that more often that anyone wants to know.
 
Leo Voisine said:
The response from Beal was from customer service - not engineering. Customer service people "should" contact engineering but more often then not, they do not. It is aggregating. BTDT As an engineer, I have heard that more often that anyone wants to know.
Click to expand...
My response was from JR Beal himself.
 
Darren Wright said:
Yeah, not sure what to think of that message, not something I'd be happy about.

Could ask them to update the Accuracy Claim on their page once again... to .2 5or .3. :D

"Note About Accuracy: The original Tilt Box was advertised as having a resolution of .05 and an accuracy of .1. While this was (and remains) true of many of the units, it is not, we have discovered with time, true of all of them, and so, for the sake of accuracy, we are now downgrading our claims to the more realistic .2 of a degree. "
Click to expand...

WOW - for woodworking? The manufacturing process to make a gage of that level of accuracy is extreme. An angle of .05 degrees is crazy, for such a gage.

Accuracy of +/-.2 is admirable. I would say you are good. That .05 difference is so small, it is not even worth talking about. I would recommend that Beal drop the second decimal point on the angle and round to the nearest .1 I find that often times we look way too closely at some of these numbers and get caught up in things that don't matter.

Don't sweat the small stuff. That is unless you tolerances are in the millionths of an inch. In that case, the small stuff has a huge impact on the final results.

Rennie - my vote is ---- you do not have a problem.
 
Leo Voisine said:
Rennie - my vote is ---- you do not have a problem.
Click to expand...
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: You're right, of course, its 'close enough', but I do still have a problem. 🥴 I just can't handle something giving me three different readings - I mean, "which is it?" To demonstrate, It irks me when all the clocks in my house do not show the same exact time. It's either noon or it isn't. There is no gray area. I'm a riot to watch every time we have a power outage and things start blinking. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Rennie Heuer said:
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: You're right, of course, its 'close enough', but I do still have a problem. 🥴 I just can't handle something giving me three different readings - I mean, "which is it?" To demonstrate, It irks me when all the clocks in my house do not show the same exact time. It's either noon or it isn't. There is no gray area. I'm a riot to watch every time we have a power outage and things start blinking. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...

In my last job we made gages to an extreme level of accuracy. We did in fact also have the ability to measure the accuracy. We made gages to a NIST certified tolerance of +/- 5 millionths at our highest level of accuracy. There is NOTHING that is exact.

Too bad on JR Beal. Maybe he was having a bad hair day.
 
All the pictures look like the corner of the tilt box is resting on the throat plate. I suspect that is enough contact to tweak the measurement. What happens if the tilt box is attached to the blade without touching the throat plate?
 
Bill Arnold said:
An observation: The box may not be perfectly square.

You zeroed with the bottom of the device on the table top. With the bottom on the blade you got 45.00°.

If you zero the box on its left side, then place it on the blade on its left side, what happens?
Click to expand...

I'd second this, you have a reference side (the bottom) so the question is what is the accuracy and repeatabilty using that.
 
Poor response aside, I’ve tried at least a half a dozen in the Beall has been the most reliable and consistent. I also experienced the phenomenon you report. I do have to be careful but I am not going off axis but in your pictures that does not appear to be the case.
 
Back when I was making jewelry boxes, tackle boxes etc. the accuracy of my miters was obviously very important. I spent a lot of time making sure my saw was set as accurately as possible.

But when it came time to put the corners together invariably there would always be that one corner where the joint did not come together without some persuasion. The angles on the cut were correct but the wood had warped just a tiny little bit and made the joint no fit just so. It is always something.

But thank goodness we have clamps to pull things together and good glue, splines, dowel, biscuits and cussin' and fumin' to hold them where we want them. I learned that despite how carefully I set up my saws I couldn't control the wood, the humidity, that one little piece of sawdust that kicked the wood up on sliding jig etc. etc. etc. etc.

Perfection might be a goal but for me it was seldom achieved.
 
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