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Failed Finish - and the rebuild

Rennie Heuer

Rennie Heuer

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I made this mahogany table for a client 2 years ago. It is colored with trans tint dye and top coated (IIRC) Rock Hard solvent base.
IMG_1652.JPEG

The finish is failing on several levels. As you can see here, the finish is flaking off at the edges of the table.
IMG_3266.JPEG
It is also flaking where the breadboard end meets the table top.
Before IMG_1655.JPEG And afterIMG_3267.JPEG

Finally, it has a tendency to scratch very easily.
IMG_3268.JPEG

One last thing - nothing to do with the finish I think, there is a ridge that has developed where two of the boards meet in the glue up.
IMG_3269.JPEG

My guess is that I have no choice but to take it down to bare wood and refinish it. I've already let the client know there my be a small change in color as I will need to mix a new batch of dye and my record keeping sucks. :bang: Apparently, so do my finishing skills as I believe the finish is not failing as much as it is something I did wrong.

I am hesitant to use the same finishing method and am considering finding someone local that can spray it with a lacquer for me. If not, maybe switching to a water base finish. Any thoughts along these lines would be appreciated.

Lastly, what about that ridge? Does this happen to any of you? Remedy? Card scraper and sanding then hope it does not reoccur?
 

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Wow it looks like a significant adhesion fail. I'm guessing there must have been some incompatibility between the stain and the top coat? I dunno, very curious to hear what others think.

Rennie Heuer said:
One last thing - nothing to do with the finish I think, there is a ridge that has developed where two of the boards meet in the glue up.
Click to expand...

I suspect that was due to the boards shrinking further post assembly which would imply that maybe it wasn't entirely as dry as it ended up when it was assembled.. is my best guess.
 
Ryan Mooney said:
I suspect that was due to the boards shrinking further post assembly which would imply that maybe it wasn't entirely as dry as it ended up when it was assembled.. is my best guess.
Click to expand...
Possibly, but this is kiln dried stock I get from a reputable supplier and it likely acclimated in my shop for over a month prior to glue up. Even so...
 
Rennie Heuer said:
I made this mahogany table for a client 2 years ago. It is colored with trans tint dye and top coated (IIRC) Rock Hard solvent base.
View attachment 132684

The finish is failing on several levels. As you can see here, the finish is flaking off at the edges of the table.
View attachment 132687
It is also flaking where the breadboard end meets the table top.
Before View attachment 132685 And afterView attachment 132688

Finally, it has a tendency to scratch very easily.
View attachment 132689

One last thing - nothing to do with the finish I think, there is a ridge that has developed where two of the boards meet in the glue up.
View attachment 132690

My guess is that I have no choice but to take it down to bare wood and refinish it. I've already let the client know there my be a small change in color as I will need to mix a new batch of dye and my record keeping sucks. :bang: Apparently, so do my finishing skills as I believe the finish is not failing as much as it is something I did wrong.

I am hesitant to use the same finishing method and am considering finding someone local that can spray it with a lacquer for me. If not, maybe switching to a water base finish. Any thoughts along these lines would be appreciated.

Lastly, what about that ridge? Does this happen to any of you? Remedy? Card scraper and sanding then hope it does not reoccur?
Click to expand...
If you're going to have it sprayed, maybe consider a catalyzed varnish. Very hard and durable.

As for the ridges, I've had two of my walnut end tables do that after about a year. Both were glued with Titebond 3. The ridges were both about 1/64" ~ 1/32" proud of the surface, and required scraping, sanding and total refinishing of the tops. Bad batch of glue? I dunno...

Good luck with colormatching the dye.
 
First off I have had ridges appear and disappear throughout the year even here in weather-paradise. Secondly . . . ouch! Where is the client located? Good on you for standing by your product. I am no Bob Flexner or Jeff Jewitt (no one is) but that type of top coat de-lamination makes me jump to what the dye was carried with; alcohol or distilled water? We all know the old adage; when in doubt, barrier coat with dewaxed shellac. I would definitely PM Dave Hawksford. He has forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever learn.
 
Jim DeLaney said:
If you're going to have it sprayed, maybe consider a catalyzed varnish. Very hard and durable.

As for the ridges, I've had two of my walnut end tables do that after about a year. Both were glued with Titebond 3. The ridges were both about 1/64" ~ 1/32" proud of the surface, and required scraping, sanding and total refinishing of the tops. Bad batch of glue? I dunno...

Good luck with colormatching the dye.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure I used TB3 also - taking advantage of the longer open time.
 
glenn bradley said:
First off I have had ridges appear and disappear throughout the year even here in weather-paradise. Secondly . . . ouch! Where is the client located? Good on you for standing by your product. I am no Bob Flexner or Jeff Jewitt (no one is) but that type of top coat de-lamination makes me jump to what the dye was carried with; alcohol or distilled water? We all know the old adage; when in doubt, barrier coat with dewaxed shellac. I would definitely PM Dave Hawksford. He has forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever learn.
Click to expand...
I use alcohol with my dyes. Question - I shy away from using a shellac barrier over my dyes because I'm not able to spray and brushing the alcohol in the shellac can lift the color, move it around, etc.... Not true?
 
Jay Caughron said:
That joint looks like glue creep. I tried TB2 on panels when I had my production shop and got a LOT of that. Stopped using it and went back to TB Original and never had a problem. TB2&3 will creep TB'O dries harder. I was doing at least 100 panels at a time
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When I read the description and it included the word "ridges" my first thought was glue creep. It has been my nemesis for many years when glueing wood pieces together. You can scrape it flat with a card scraper but it will rear its ugly head later under the new finish.

Back a few years ago I was turning a lot of layered bowls. The first batch or two I used Titebond. The glue worked quite well but after a few months I could detect ridges at the joints. That nasty glue creep was ruining my layered bowls.

I went looking for a solution and Chas Jones offered a suggestion that I use a powdered resin glue named Cascamite. I bought a tub of it and followed the directions. It worked like a dream. I turned dozens of layered bowls using that as the adhesive and never had any glue creep. Not only that the glue line is invisible.
 
Rennie Heuer said:
I use alcohol with my dyes. Question - I shy away from using a shellac barrier over my dyes because I'm not able to spray and brushing the alcohol in the shellac can lift the color, move it around, etc.... Not true?
Click to expand...
Yes, true. I keep a couple of cans of spray shellac around for just such occasions.
spray shellac is wax free.jpg
Dries really fast, seals well, and allows me to move along.
 
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Mike Stafford said:
I went looking for a solution and Chas Jones offered a suggestion that I use a powdered resin glue named Cascamite. I bought a tub of it and followed the directions. It worked like a dream. I turned dozens of layered bowls using that as the adhesive and never had any glue creep. Not only that the glue line is invisible.
Click to expand...
Stirring up some ancient memories of my boyhood. The only glue my dad would use was Weldwood Resorcinol Glue. I remember him with a small bit of scrap mixing it up in a cup. We all left that behind in exchange for the convenience of TB. A like product (as I don't think Weldwood is available any more) might be worth looking into!.

Edit - Looks like the plastic resin glue from Weldwood might have been what he used as it is a powder you mix with water. The other is a two part mixture.
 
My Dad built three boats using the two part resorcinol . It dried hard as a rock, left a dark brown glue line and I spilled more than just one or two drops of blood from cutting myself on sharp glue line edges during clean up.
 
Ted Calver said:
My Dad built three boats using the two part resorcinol . It dried hard as a rock, left a dark brown glue line and I spilled more than just one or two drops of blood from cutting myself on sharp glue line edges during clean up.
Click to expand...
My dad used to moonlight as night watchmen for a wood boat builder (Henry Luhr) back in the 60's. He would often be offered mahogany cut offs and such. No doubt his preference for glues came from that association.
 
Rennie Heuer said:
Stirring up some ancient memories of my boyhood. The only glue my dad would use was Weldwood Resorcinol Glue. I remember him with a small bit of scrap mixing it up in a cup. We all left that behind in exchange for the convenience of TB. A like product (as I don't think Weldwood is available any more) might be worth looking into!.

Edit - Looks like the plastic resin glue from Weldwood might have been what he used as it is a powder you mix with water. The other is a two part mixture.
Click to expand...
By the way Cascamite is made in England but is available from Amazon.

P.S. I remember my dad working on his mahogany boat and making a repair with resorcinol. I got it on my hands and it took quite a while for it to wear off.
 
No one has plainly said it yet, but I'm thinking that taking it back to bare wood and starting over is my only course of action.

Top coat remains a topic for discussion. I know a guy that runs a cabinet shop - I might ask him if he knows someone who could spray it. Alternately, I may attempt spraying it myself. What about brushing a water born finish? My understanding is they are very durable.

Any thoughts?

Best choice - have a pro do it (downside $$$)
Next - spray it myself
last resort, brush on.
 
Target EM8000cv CAN be brushed, but spraying is preferred. It does provide a very durable finish. Dries in about an hour (depending on application thickness) and cures in about a week.
 
Jim DeLaney said:
Target EM8000cv CAN be brushed, but spraying is preferred. It does provide a very durable finish. Dries in about an hour (depending on application thickness) and cures in about a week.
Click to expand...
Water based and only $33 a quart - might go this way. I can spray this - my heater in the shop has an open flame so I like to stay away from spraying finishes that go BOOM💥.
 
Rennie Heuer said:
Water based and only $33 a quart - might go this way. I can spray this - my heater in the shop has an open flame so I like to stay away from spraying finishes that go BOOM💥.
Click to expand...

One small caveat.

I haven't specifically used EM8000 but if it's like the other water white/water clear finishes I've used. When they say "Non-Yellowing/Water White", what they mean it that it really really really does NOT color the wood or pop the grain AT ALL. Which can be a bit of a surprise if you're used to the coloring you get with oil based finishes.

So you'll want to tone the wood before you apply any of that finish and do some color testing on scrap as well.

Having said that I've had good luck with the ones I have used (mostly GF Endurovar and their water clear woodturners finish which is even clearer) although they do dry such that trying to fuss with them after application is not really possible (or at least easy) like a lot of the oil based finishes so it required me to be a touch more .. agile.. in that regard :D
 
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