I may need an intervention

which machine better fits my needs, the 500 or the 700. :dunno: :rofl:

Yes? :rofl:

I've seen a number of folks either loving or hating the 700 with the Seneca adapter to fit the 500 bits. Having used neither I don't have a lot of opinions.. other than it would have been nice to have not needed to make the decision and have one machine that handles both nicely? :D
 
Structurally I'm going to have to disagree with that somewhat.

The main difference is that dowels will slowly shift from round->oval and back again as humidity changes. This will over the long term break the glue joint in some dowel joints (I say some because it depends on the glue, the wood, the grain orientation, etc.. factors which I would guess Sam was well aware of, perhaps adapted for in some cases, and perhaps didn't care about in others).

A tennon on the other hand is a flat grain<->flat grain structure which is inherently a more stable glue joint.

Whether or not this matters depends on the projects expected lifespan, what the dowels are doing structurally, how the rest of the structure is designed, what specific materials are used, etc..

But there are definite differences in expected lifespan if you measure long enough for same materials and dowels vs tennons (loose or fixed).
Sam did a lot of things that defy conventional wisdom and his furniture has passed the test of time, I have never heard of a failure in any pieces that Sam Made. He once said that a screw as nothing but a steel dowel....lol
 
I've stayed out of this discussion because I have no Festool products on which to base my experience. Saying that, I have built most of my projects using loose tenon joinery because of the advantage of being able to cut all pieces to an exact length without regard to the tenon allowance in standard M/T. Most of my mortises have been cut on the router table; a few required a hand-held router due to the size of the piece. I was satisfied with the speed of doing loose tenon joinery in that way, but I'm not in a production environment.

As to the Domino, when I first saw it advertised I thought, "Well, now . . . how about that?" My next thought after seeing the price was, "OUCH!" I got through life just fine using my router and table.
 
Interesting - only works with the 700 - we haven't even gotten into which machine better fits my needs, the 500 or the 700. :dunno: :rofl:
Actually, they now make those KD fasteners for the 500, too. As for which machine, I sorta look at the 500 as a 'furniture' machine and the 700 more as a 'construction' version. In 4/4 stock, a 6mm domino fits the "1/3 of the thickness" rule for tenons, and the 10 mm one works that same way for 5/4 stock. If you're getting into heavier work, you might want the bigger machine.

You can get an aftermarket adapter to use the smaller (500) bits in the 700, but the 700 is a pretty big and heavy (by comparison) machine that might be a bit hard to use with the smaller stuff. I dunno, since I've only held the 700, but never actually used it.
 
On the plus side, the 700 appears to be in stock:

 
Interesting - only works with the 700 - we haven't even gotten into which machine better fits my needs, the 500 or the 700. :dunno: :rofl:
I vacillated on this for a while. As a disclaimer, I tend to go with tools that do more than I require as opposed to getting something that will just get me by. Having said that, the Domino is a hand held mortiser. Much of the quality of the result is literally in your hands.

While the increased capacity of the 700 was tempting, I have done enough router mortising to know that I don't want to have to control more mass than required. I use a 1-3/4HP router more often for mortise work than a 2-1/4. In fact I use the 2-1/4 only when I need the variable speed or additional power. That is, I use the lightest tool that will do the job well.

I went with the 500 and have been glad. At 7 pounds the 500 is noticeably lighter than the 11+ pounds of the 700. They are not a tool that I can use one handed like a small router. You need to position it accurately, hold it in that position and orientation and control the tool through the operation.

I would equate operating the Domino to holding a router correctly while edge routing with a dust collection hose connected. Certainly not a difficult task but one that provides better results the more control and experience you have.
 
I vacillated on this for a while. As a disclaimer, I tend to go with tools that do more than I require as opposed to getting something that will just get me by. Having said that, the Domino is a hand held mortiser. Much of the quality of the result is literally in your hands.

While the increased capacity of the 700 was tempting, I have done enough router mortising to know that I don't want to have to control more mass than required. I use a 1-3/4HP router more often for mortise work than a 2-1/4. In fact I use the 2-1/4 only when I need the variable speed or additional power. That is, I use the lightest tool that will do the job well.

I went with the 500 and have been glad. At 7 pounds the 500 is noticeably lighter than the 11+ pounds of the 700. They are not a tool that I can use one handed like a small router. You need to position it accurately, hold it in that position and orientation and control the tool through the operation.

I would equate operating the Domino to holding a router correctly while edge routing with a dust collection hose connected. Certainly not a difficult task but one that provides better results the more control and experience you have.
Agree! Exactly what Glenn said.
 
Rennie,

Something that you may be over looking in an FMT is that the top plate of the jig (not the router base plate) can slide X and Y and has a brake and stops that can be set to limit it's movement. With the one setup, this allows you to have multiple smaller mortises and tenons spaced in both X and Y directions to increase the joint strength, so not only one M & T joint, but up to four M & T joints in a group, and they will be sized and spaced perfectly so they go together as easy as a single M & T joint, and this is repeatable for as many duplicate parts as you may need. Working with 1 1/2 - 2 1/2" thick stock really isn't a problem, except for the handling effort.

The FMT will let you cut angled joints like needed for chair joints easily too. The vertical clamping face tilts forward, and you can set up stops on this plate for compound angled M & T joints and repeat the same cut on many pieces by just clamping the additional identical pieces against the stops. Multiple M & T joints in a long board can be done using pencil mark locations on the work piece and location repeat marks along two side boards that you can add to the sides of the FMT to extend it's width left and right. Ladder type assemblies come to mind for this. You make these side wings from thin wood or plywood, and attach a supplied metal bracket to each that then gets inserted into a slot in the side of the FMT and locked in place via a set screw, so they can be easily removed or installed as needed. These can be as long as your project requires. You can then move your work piece to each location by the marks that you add to these extensions, letting you make many pieces with the need to only mark the first piece and the wings so you can locate the ends of the additional pieces where needed.

To set up the FMT, you put a pencil cross mark on the first piece, where the mortise or tenon will go. You only need to do this on the first piece. Then every duplicate piece can be cut without marking it. A cross hair alignment slide piece of the FMT top plate is slid into position, and then the top plate that I mentioned above is unlocked and moved until this cross hair lines up with your pencil cross mark. This locates the exact center of where your mortise or tenon will be cut. The plate has stops that you can slide and lock to keep the plate in that position, or just setting the brake will hold the plate in place. When doing multiple M & T joints close to each other, these stops are set so you can position this top plate to each of the multiple positions up to four accurately and then the brake will hold the plate from moving while you make each cut. This is the feature that allows up to four identical M & T joints to be placed in a group to achieve a super strong joint, ie. for working with thick material.

The plastic patterns snap into a place in the FMT top plate and are then followed by a pin in the FMT jig router base plate. There are two of these pins in the base plate. One follows a straight line guide in the right side of the FMT top plate while you guide the left pin around the perimeter of the plastic pattern piece when cutting tenons, or down a slot in the center of the plastic pattern piece when cutting the mortise. Your plunge router depth setting determines your mortise or tenon depth. The follower pin in the router plate is slightly tapered, and so are the plastic pattern pieces. Turning an 8 position incremented knob on the top of the follower pin raises and lowers this tapered follower pin. One click of this knob = 0.001" change in the fit of the tenon to the mortise, allowing you to make perfect joint fits without any hand fitting afterwards. All tenons of this size will fit all mortises of this size made, so no hand fitting, sanding, or rabbet planning is needed. This is the feature that does not exist in most other M & T jigs.

For most M & T work I have attached a piece of 3/4 cabinet birch plywood to the base of the FMT that extends about 4" beyond the FMT in the left and right direction. This can be used to clamp the FMT to a workbench or other mounting location, or each end has a hole that matches drilled holes in my workbench top. I have placed 1/4-20" threaded inserts in these workbench holes, so that I can easily attach the FMT to my workbench with 1/4-20 bolts. (I actually use 1/4-20 fixture knobs). The vertical clamping plate of the FMT needs to be located out beyond the edge of the bench so work pieces clamped to it can extend down from it past the side of the workbench. Most of the time I do not need to cut M & T joints in very long work pieces that the bench height will not allow, but I have needed to do so a couple of times. I have clamped the FMT to the attic floor of my shop at the edge of the pull down stairway a few times, and then stood on the fold down stairs to make the cuts. Another time I mounted the FMT backwards (facing the yard) to the railing of my neighbor's 2nd floor deck using clamps (with his permission) and let the long work pieces hang down past his deck while cutting the ends of them. Fortunately, this type of M & T joint on very long work pieces isn't needed very often.

A vacuum port is located under the top plate and in the back of the FMT. This port works pretty well when cutting mortises or the back side of tenons, but it is not very good at collecting chips from the front and end cuts of tenons. I added a 8" X 12" piece of clear Lexan to the front edge of the top FMT plate using a Velcro strip on the edge of the FMT top plate and the mating Velcro strip to the top long edge of the Lexan so I can attach and remove it easily. You should never get your face down in this area while cutting because of danger of a chip or broken bit hitting you, but the Lexan guard helps the vacuum port some and at least keeps the chips from hitting you directly.

It's also good practice to never attempt to cut tenons longer than 1" in a single pass, but you can cut the additional length in a second pass. The chips from attempting to cut more than 1" at a time tend to bridge across the vacuum port and will plug it quickly. Making two or more passes to keep the chips shorter than 1" is more effective and they will not plug the vacuum port easily.

I use one of my DeWalt DW618 routers and plunge base when using my FMT. It's mostly because base hole patterns of the 618 match one of the patterns in the FMT router base plate, making the attachment of the two very easy, but it's also the lightest weight 1/2" router that I have, and the plunge action works very well. Hole patterns also match many other routers, or there is a bar clamp system to allow attaching routers with holes for edge guides, etc. You don't need a high HP router, but one with 1/2" bit shank capability is a significant benefit for bit stiffness. Since I frequently lift the router on and off of my FMT, I found that a light weight router is important, as is a platform with a hole in it next to the FMT and at the same level as the top of the FMT, so I can place the router on it when it's not on the FMT. When cutting M & T joints all day, minimizing the lifting effort of the router becomes very important both in weight and movement distance. This holds true when cutting dovetail joints too. I have a Leigh D4R for dovetails and a similar platform for that process too.

Charley
 
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