Tenon shoulder problem-looking for suggestion

allen levine

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I know I should just recut. Problem is, I cant use any more lumber for the chairs. It would leave me short for the table, and this wood is not something I can get around the corner, and Id hate to have to buy one piece and pay for shipping, and so on.

The shoulder on 2 tenons are a bit curved. curved outside, but the tenon fits perfectly, the shoulders leave a sliver of light passing through a back slat to where it attaches to a leg.
The joint is not stress bearing, and the glue and screw hold it well.

Is it repairable without recutting?
I cannot trim it at all cause it will shorten length of slat, and every slat on chair including seat support are same exact size.
I really have no idea how to fix a shoulder on a tenon. 2 slightly off out of about 100.
The lexan zero clearance plate(only 3/32) gave a little from downward pressure Im guessing, and caused me to cut a bit more off.

i drew a rough, very rough, sketch of the problem and exaggerated the gap to show it.


the reason I fell short on the wood count, is that orginally I was going to use 5/4 stock for entire frame of chair, but changed the seat supports to 3/4 inch. I have extra 5/4, but I have no way of planing Ipe, nor do I think anyone would actually plane this stuff)
 

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I have extra 5/4, but I have no way of planing Ipe, nor do I think anyone would actually plane this stuff)

Um, well, um, what? No way to plane? Ok, let's assume you don't have a planer, or a jointer. You can make a jointer sled for the table saw? Bandsaw it and use a router table?

Wait, no bandsaw? No router table? Back to the jointer sled! ;)

There's always a way! ;)

Thanks,

Bill

Or, you could try the glue/sawdust trick... ;)
 
still lost, dont own jointer, planer or bandsaw.(but trimming anything would make the piece a different length and then it would be too short)I believe anyone planing this stuff must have special equipment or special blades.

The worst case scenario, whenever I can, Ill have to buy more 3/4 lumber, whenever that is.

:(
 
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Is the tolerance so slight that you can't slice a sliver off the top and tenon to allow the bottom to "bottom out" ??? We are talking chairs here, right? Just today I was working on a piece and the top of the joint snugged up and the bottom didn't, I took a (Japanese style thin cut pull saw) and sliced the shoulder of the joint enough material removed that the rest of the joint fit snug. OKay, so the resulting piece was a "silly millimeter" smaller It worked fine and the joint was fine and the total piece didn't amount to a hill of beans difference. Joint was snug, piece was saved, Only I know the difference.

Remember we are working with wood and wood will grow or shrink more than we can measure so measurements are not machinist's quality.

I assembled the joint and as you showed, the piece did not seat snug, so I held the thin blade snug to the mortice piece, pulled a few strokes on both sides and top, removed the thickness of the blade and the piece snugged tight. You can do the same. Or Not.... Just MHO Have a great day with whatever you decide to do.
 
I always keep my cutoffs from my tenon cheeks in case I cut too thin. I would assume the same fix would work for the shoulder. Paw around for the piece you cut off, adjust it a bit as required for a good fit. Glue and clamp it on, wait 24hrs and re-cut.
 

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I've never had that exact situation, but what I might try is to do a trial fitting first. Then I'd cut a small wedge. The wedge will be too big (it will stick up too high), but mark it where it needs to be then remove it and trim it with a sharp knife. (note: align the wedge grain with the board if the wedge will hold together. Otherwise, go with grain direction which will hold together)

Then do your glueup being careful not to fill the gap with glue. Carefully insert the wedge after the original glue up. Maybe use epoxy glue to fill any space left. Push the wedge down flat where you need it to be. If not tight, the epoxy will fill. After the glue hardens, very carefully trim with a sharp chisel.

At least that's what I'd try. I'm afraid it will show to those who look closely, however.

I don't see any way to do it invisibly.

Mike
 
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Allen, I would go with Mike's suggestion but a little differently. If I'm understanding your problem correctly you have a gap in the joint where the leg is curved? Cut a wedge of scrap wood, glue it to the slat in the gap area matching grain direction, then carefully shape the joint to fit. Do this before gluing the slat to the leg and make sure it fits before the final glue up (slat to leg). I would not go with power tools to shape this, shape it by hand using sanding blocks, sharp knives, files, scraper ... whatever you have and feel comfortable with. If you match the grain and carefully glue the wedge in, it should come out close to invisible. Bring plenty of patience and take your time and it should come out unnoticeable. Good Luck .....

Tony
 
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I was hoping when I came down this morning, something changed.
Not the case, so I had alot of slivers, and I sanded one down to about less than the 1/16th , and wedged it in as suggested.
Trimed it first, then used the chisel to shape it exactly around the slat.
Ill sand it eventually when I final sand the chairs to be coated.

I took a pic, it comes out too blurry, doesnt pay to post, cant really see it or the correction, but it looks fine with the wedge in there.
Thankyou for the suggestions, onward.
(Im in over my head, I should have stuck with adirondack chairs)
 
allen, great that you got this fixed...but i have a problem with your last statement. just because you messed up one complicated joint doesn't mean you're in over your head. the one thing i've learned in a lifetime of hobby woodworking is that i will make mistakes and the success of most projects depends on how clever i can be in fixing them. if we just made the same items over and over again we could get the process perfect but who wants to do that???

keep cutting wood.
 
Understanding what youre saying. Im in over my head in regards that if I want to do finer work, as in exacting MT jointing and using only hardwoods, I cannot proceed with this type of work without first equipping myself properly.
Im using a 99 dollar tablesaw with a bent fence. A fence that isnt even holding tight, so I have to set it so carefully and recheck and recheck constantly.(a main reason a few tenons will come out offcut)
When I make any type of things that dont require precision joinery, as in an adirondack chair, a 32nd, even a 16th off will make very little difference.
I never give up, but understand the need for quality equipment, and that I may not really be up to doing the kind of work Id like to experiment with, even though I know Ill foul things here and there.
I always do, but my fault is fine by me. Lacking the proper knowledge is one thing, lacking the proper equipment is a different ballgame.(Im sorry if the remark was distasteful, for lack of a better word)
 
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Allen,
Pushing your abilities beyond their limit is the only way to get further down the road. If you don't try harder stuff, you'll never do any harder stuff. Good on you for pushing the limits of your tools. Any extra effort you go to in order to get past the abilities (as you see them) of your current arsenal of tools will only make you a better woodworker down the road as you add new tools.

A fence that is crooked? Attach a straight board to it, shimming as necessary to keep it both straight and within adjustability of the fence to get it parallel. Doesn't clamp down well? A C-clamp can remedy that.

I think what Bill was saying was to use the extra 5/4 material you have to make new stretchers. No planer needed for that if the 5/4 is already straight and flat enough to use otherwise. Rip it to the width and thickness you need on the tablesaw using that newly re-engineered rip fence. Nothing says you have to plane it down to 3/4" thick before cutting it to width.

Most of all, don't lose hope or despair too much over the little things like that itty bitty gap. Learn from it and next time you'll prevent it from happening.
 
I'd bet all of us look at a project we've just completed and see flaws in it. But each project gets better - and each one still has flaws (different flaws).

It's good to go in over your head.

However, I understand what you mean by working with difficult tools. I started that way and as I had a bit of money I upgraded my tools. I still have tools I'd like to upgrade (my table saw) but I'm now at the point where I can't blame my tools any more. In time, you'll get there also. Keep plugging away - you do good work.

Mike

[Also, if you have woodworking friends who have some power tools you don't have, ask if you can go to their place and do some technique. Most woodworkers are quite willing to help, as long as you demonstrate you know what you're doing and won't damage the tool (or yourself).]
 
Also, to make good tenons on the table saw, use a sled, rather than a tenon jig (as long as the tenon is straight and the wood is straight and square). If you don't know how to do that, let me know and I'll post some pictures.

Your situation was especially difficult because you had a bunch of items that had to be exactly the same length. It's tough to make those so don't beat yourself up so much.

Mike
 
I downloaded 2 different easy to build tenoning jigs.
They basically covered the fence and had a block to push the wood.
I secured the fence down, screwed a piece of particle board on it, used a square to get as close to straight as possible, and ran them all like that with the mitre attachment. I actually purchased some T-track not so long ago as it was my intention to build a simple sled and have a stop block that I could tighten without using an extra clamp.

As I stated, I believe my errors occurred when I put downward pressure too close to the end, pushing down on my zero clearance plate, made of very thin lexan, and that caused the plate to give ever so slightly, which caused a slight movement in some pieces as I pushed it all the way through.

I switched back to the factory dado plate I purchased, since it was made of metal, and didnt give.
 
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I downloaded 2 different easy to build tenoning jigs.
They basically covered the fence and had a block to push the wood.
I secured the fence down, screwed a piece of particle board on it, used a square to get as close to straight as possible, and ran them all like that with the mitre attachment. I actually purchased some T-track not so long ago as it was my intention to build a simple sled and have a stop block that I could tighten without using an extra clamp.

As I stated, I believe my errors occurred when I put downward pressure too close to the end, pushing down on my zero clearance plate, made of very thin lexan, and that caused the plate to give ever so slightly, which caused a slight movement in some pieces as I pushed it all the way through.

I switched back to the factory dado plate I purchased, since it was made of metal, and didnt give.
When I mentioned a "sled" I was referring to a standard crosscutting sled that you use with a table saw. You really don't need anything special to do tenons, unless you're doing compound tenons (tenons at one or two angles).

And, in my opinion, the less special jigs, the better. Too much junk to keep in the shop.

Mike
 
I always keep my cutoffs from my tenon cheeks in case I cut too thin. I would assume the same fix would work for the shoulder. Paw around for the piece you cut off, adjust it a bit as required for a good fit. Glue and clamp it on, wait 24hrs and re-cut.

That's what I was going to suggest. Even if you dont have the same cutoff, most Ipe I've seen doesn't really have figure or noticable grain lines to it so any old scrap piece should work too. Cut the shoulder at a fixed angle and the scrap to match, glue it on, then recut that side of the tenon.
 
Allen,
Pushing your abilities beyond their limit is the only way to get further down the road. If you don't try harder stuff, you'll never do any harder stuff. Good on you for pushing the limits of your tools. Any extra effort you go to in order to get past the abilities (as you see them) of your current arsenal of tools will only make you a better woodworker down the road as you add new tools.

Allen,

What Jerry said! As he knows, I myself started with a 40 dollar table saw (got it cheap at the borg because so many parts were missing). Believe me, I know what you're going through. Don't get down on yourself, we can all see that you'll get there!

Here's the most honest expression I can come up with of what I've learned so far. You need four things to learn to do woodworking:

Determination
Knowledge
Skill
Good tools

You've got the determination, and in spades! You remind me of me! ;) When I started, my stuff was so horrible, Doorlink laughed out loud. She'd get on the phone and mock me to all her friends and family. But I wasn't gonna let a dumb piece of wood beat me, and neither will you! ;) I would stand there scratching my head like the doofus I am, and I'd keep scratching my head until I figured it out!

Knowledge is what you get on this forum. There's a wealth of it, people who have been doing this stuff for years, each passing down tricks that others have taught them, who themselves had it passed down... it's a long chain, stretching back through the generations... some say all the way back to the egyptians.

Skill is what we acquire through doing it. Maybe it's touch, maybe it's the accumulations of all the "arts & mysteries", I don't know. But it's something we develop along the way.

Good tools. The cliche that bugs me more than any other is "it ain't the arrows, it's the indian." or "it's not the bike, it's who's on it." Well, I used to ride a bike, a lot, and I can tell you from experience *that* cliche is dead wrong. I know what it's like trying to make do with tools that are less than brilliant, fences that don't stay stable, router spindles that wobble... you name it, I've done it. You need to upgrade your shop as soon as you can. I know it's not easy, but there are several ways to build a shop. There's a saying in computing: "cheap, fast and good: pick two!" When I was starting my shop, it had to be on the cheap. That meant it was a slow process, and took several years. It's gonna take you a while too, but you'll get there, You clearly have the determination! ;)

In the meantime, don't get down on yourself, don't worry you've bit off too much, all will be well. And if anyone laughs at you, laugh with them... then say "yes, it's pretty funny, but I *will* figure it out eventually... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
I appreciate the "pep" talks,

Im too old to be a quitter.

My next step before I put in a very needed dust collector, is to figure out and purchase a TS that will both suit my needs, both space wise,cost will not be primary issue at this point, light enough so I can move it on a mobile base, and a decent fence or at least one that can be upgraded that will allow me to advance to a few more complicated projects other than outdoor furniture.

Bill-I do appreciate the abundant knowledge of the members here. Its a tool, just like a jigsaw or a router, to be able to draw upon it or see things that might save me untold amounts of time.
 
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