A Living Barn (Outside the box)

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As many of you know I now have sheep and with a birthing rate of 200%, I should have several sheep soon. That will mean my existing sheep shed will be outgrown in very short order. In a way it is silly...Maine law requires a "3 sided structure to get animals out of the wind" even for sheep that have 3 inches of wool on them. In fact its actually unhealthy for a sheep to be in a barn in the winter. Still a law is a law and we farm according to all livestock laws. This means I need something for a barn so I went to see my horticulturalist.

Now wait a minute you are probably saying, you need to talk to an architect or a building contractor, not a horticulturalist.

I disagree.

I have done some research and there is some growing interest in what is known as Living Barns. Its basically plantings in certain shapes that allow the livestock to get out of the wind. The basic premise is this. The plantings (like hedge) block the wind and raise the temp inside the living barn. At the same time it can provide shade and yet allow the toxic ammonia from the livestock urine to be vented.

I have not hammered out a final design, but I was thinking something like this shape. I I ) The semicircular line will be vegetation planted on earthen mound in a semi circular shape about 4 feet high. Vegetation will be cedars a few feet tall and planted darn tight to keep out the wind. That will face the north and block our northerly winds. Being made of earth, it will also absorb the suns rays and kind of help heat and protect the livestock.

In front of that will be another row of vegetation,probably fir trees that are tight to block any south facing winds, but below enough to allow sunlight over them and into the living barn. In front of that will be a longer row of vegetation that is pretty much there just to act as a snow fence.

Now for shade I can do a few things. I can plant some bigger trees such as Spruce or Fir that will help keep the rain off the inside of the living barn, or I can make a trellis over the barn and use deciduous vines to help shade the interior of the barn in the summer. If I can find the right type of vine, maybe ones with broad leaves, it will reduce the amount of rainfall inside the barn as well :dunno:

The final design will certain have drain tiles that drain water from inside the barn where excess manure will collect and deposit it into a wood chip filled trench. Wood chips are unique in that it takes 7 years for them to break down. When they do, it gives your soil lots of nitrogen, but in the first 7 years, it takes so much nitrogen out of the soil to compost it, that it actually scrubs the excess nitrates from the manure reducing nitrate pollution (Over-manured soil).

I don't think this barn will be much cheaper then a conventional barn, but it will certainly be "green". It will also never deteriorate though the plantings may require pruning and maintenance. I would also like to get some weather recording equipment and see what the inside versus outside differences are in rainfall amounts, temp and wind.

Its kind of thinking outside the box, but what is your take on this idea of building a barn 'green'...literally? Will it work, or is it just too over the top? Let the darts be thrown...
 
I am speechless. Did not realise you need to be the equivalent of a rocket scientist to be a farmer these days. I will watch the comments of those that can even digest all of these facts.
 
Travis,
i was reading this thinking, "surely somebody's done this before". I'm thinking about farming in very poor areas, or nomadic farmers and how they protect their livestock. People domesticated livestock before we had barns, right? So, i googled.
http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-nz/emergency-management/snow/snow0011.htm
and
http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1198781247368&lang=e
and
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory85.html

Looks like a viable option, but may take some years to get established. I guess one of the beauties of the barn is that it provides space for other things as well, like feed, a protected place for lambing, etc. If you have those bases covered, why build redundant space?
And take it from your friendly neighborhood architect - you don't need an architect.
paulh
 
Interesting...all three links came to the same conclusions I did. In fact everything on my original post was designed for a reason. For instance the half round shape was there to buffer the wind as well as allow the sheep to enter. They are very nervous animals and thus hate corners. They will follow a curve, but enter a corner...not unless forced.

The berm was no different then placing the shelter on the leeward side of a hill. Impossible in my situation, but kind of the same thing.

Ultimately though it does make economic sense. If the living barn reduces feed requirements by 30% to maintain the same animal condition, that would equate to 200 pounds of feed, per sheep per year over that of open pasture farming. While 4 sheep is pathetic, it would still save me about 17 bales of hay, or about 51 bucks worth of feed. Since I want to have 150 sheep in 10 years, a living barn with that many sheep, would save me about 600 bales of feed per year. Or about,1800 dollars per year.

If you plug in the 15% lamb mortality rate used in one of the links, even at a low figure of $250 dollars per lamb, you would save an 45 lambs with 150 sheep. (150 ewes with a 200% birthing rate, with 15% mortality on open pasture). Those loses would equate to about 7500 dollars, on top of the 1800 bucks saved in feed. (I used 30 lambs and not 45 because some lamb losses are inevitable and cannot be attributed to having a better birthing environment.)

Of course this is an open pasture system, you would get the same thing with a conventional barn right?

Nope.

With a living barn that absorbed the excess manure, it would save having to swamp out the manure in the barn with a tractor and labor hours. It would also reduce pneumonia which comes from sheep living in high levels of ammonia from their own manure. The living barn would not only be ventilated, the carbon dioxide the sheep give off with each breath would be absorbed by the vegetation, and likewise the sheep would benefit from the oxygen given off by the vegetation.

A person over on a sheep forum once told me this...dairy cows are high tech, high cash flow livestock. Sheep are low cash flow and low tech. The least amount of money you spent for their care, the more money you make. I am just taking every aspect of sheep farming and asking myself...is there a low cost alternative and better system that does not require diesel fuel and other expensive inputs?

I don't think a living barn is as far fetched as it sounds.
 
Holy Sheep, here comes the sheep puns.

As a side note, I thought it would be funny to change my Microsoft Word automatic spell checker so that every time you type the word "you", it automatically changed it to "ewe". It was funny and cute until my wife had to type something for a school child (she is a teacher).

"When dealing with Johnny ewe should..."

She is pretty smart so she changed it back really quick so it no longer does that. :) :) :)
 
I guess it should come as no surprise but there is actually a Federal Agency that kind of promotesand supervises Living barns and other stuff called Agriforestry. Its kind of new and was created by the 1990 Farm Bill, but has grown and is a small off-shoot of the USDA, NRCS, FSA....all agriculture agencies.

As for not needing an Architect Paul, I disagree. Look at the complex mathematical equations to generate a size for something like this!


Living Barn Design Help


Now come on Paul wouldn't you want your name on this, a little bronze plaque saying "Designed by the famous St Louis Architect Paul Hubbman in 2008" stuck in front of these trees somewhere so some yet-to-be-born Shepard could read it and be impressed? :rofl: Come on Paul, design a building in Mainland China or turn some trees into a barn, I am thinking the latter would be more noble of an architect. :huh:
 
I am speechless. Did not realise you need to be the equivalent of a rocket scientist to be a farmer these days. I will watch the comments of those that can even digest all of these facts.

To answer your question, you kind of do. The more you know,the more you can change your practices to take advantage of that knowledge.

Take corn versus grass for instance. Corn is high in sugar which provides energy to the animal, grass provides protein if you harvest it early enough.By mixing the two together you can reduce your grain bill, give your cows and sheep energy, and have plenty of protein in them. Kind of simple really, but for us it often means stopping to plant corn to grab the grass when its young. Years ago we would finish planting the corn,then grab the grass after that high protein content was gone. We were nixing ourselves and did not know it.

Another area of concern is nitrate pollution, or better put too much cow poop on the ground. My Grandfather used to figure out how many cows and sheep he could have per acre by how much grass was growing on that acre. The more that grew, the more sheep and cows that could be stocked there. That is no longer the case. The cows and sheep per acre is now dictated by how much they poop. Its a cumulative thing. Depending upon soil and compaction and other factors, that poop can add up and pollute your soil. That has along title called the Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan and you have to have one. Every livestock farm in Maine has one no matter the size.

These are just two examples. Farming is a heavily regulated industry and we all know that. At the same time it takes ALL of us staying up on this stuff to stay in farming. Of course as I write this I say so with a heavy heart. Jeff and Amy...whose farm I work on a lot, just sold their farm. It was not sold to the Amish, but it was sold.:(
 
What caught my attention was the fact your state has laws requiring barns for animals. :eek:
I have trouble grasping the reality of that. If legislators in Arkansas passed such a law, they would be hung before being voted out of office. Individual rights are just not trampled on here.
I understand, you have real winters up there, we are much-much milder. But, common sense and economics dictate what shelters a farmer will build.
 
But Travis, where would i put the iconic cupola? And i wouldn't even begin to know how to design for handicapped accessibility for sheep.
In all seriousness, i did print off the link you posted. This is interesting stuff. I think it's great you're pursuing this, but i still have the question: don't you need something in the interrim between when this is fully established and when your sheep will need some practical shelter (like the next 5 years or so)?
paulh
 
But Travis, where would i put the iconic cupola? And i wouldn't even begin to know how to design for handicapped accessibility for sheep.
In all seriousness, i did print off the link you posted. This is interesting stuff. I think it's great you're pursuing this, but i still have the question: don't you need something in the interrim between when this is fully established and when your sheep will need some practical shelter (like the next 5 years or so)?
paulh

Yes and no. Legally I need a 3 sided structure for the sheep so our old sawmill will suffice. It has 3 sides, has a roof and the sheep can get out of the wind. Being as big as it is, it could easily hold 30 sheep or so, so I fall within the law easily enough, but I chose sheep because they are indeed hardy. In short...they are not going to use it even though it is available to them.

Oh they are dumb, don't get me wrong, but lets just say they might be more smart then some of those animals that are at the top of the food chain and dream up laws. Sheep know what they need. Real barns, unless properly ventilated for sheep, can be worse then being outside. The ammonia builds up and the sheep get pneumonia...to the point of being toxic and lethal for them.

I think the worst thing about having sheep is knowing they don't need much, and yet having to listen to all the animal lovers who THINK they do. For instance, as long as you don't shear them after September 1st, they will have plenty of wool to thrive well below zero F. At the same time, their wool has lanolin, or a natural grease that keeps them from getting wet in rain. Snow, Rain, Ice, Cold...they shrug it off. Stick your hand under their coats of wool and you will see how much warmth they retain.

Sheep have two major needs,which the living barn covers quite well. Protection from wind. Wool is warm, but its not windproof like nylon, so they need to get out of the wind. And they need shade. Sheep can take the cold, but they cannot take the heat. While I am waiting for my Living barn to grow, I could keep them fenced in areas with trees that provide wind cover and shade.

Now keep in mind too that my sheep operation will grow at 200%, but Lamb is not like Beef. You can raise a lamb from birth to slaughter in 5 months time or less. Because of that short raise time, the flock will rise and fall in number. In other words, I have 4 sheep now, but if each ewe has twins, that will give me 10 sheep in the Spring. Assuming 3 are ram lambs, and 3 are ewe lambs, (50-50 split) by the time next Fall arrives, 3 Ram Lambs will be gone for slaughter. That means my flock will swell during the summer when I can use existing trees for shade and wind breaks. This is when the leaf canopy is greater because of deciduous trees, and ever greens so I got a lot more to work with.

The one problem I have not come up with regarding the Living Barn is bedding material. You cannot use sawdust because it will ruin their fleeces and straw is too expensive. Yet with that many animals inside the Living barn, it will get muddy and messy with manure and hoof traffic. Its a perplexing problem.
 
Travis,

I'm not sure about this one. See my inserted comments:

The basic premise is this. The plantings (like hedge) block the wind and raise the temp inside the living barn. At the same time it can provide shade and yet allow the toxic ammonia from the livestock urine to be vented.

Sounds sensible so far. But you'll need a LOT of sq. footage... high cost for plant material, high cost for drainage equipment

I have not hammered out a final design, but I was thinking something like this shape. I I ) The semicircular line will be vegetation planted on earthen mound in a semi circular shape about 4 feet high. Vegetation will be cedars a few feet tall and planted darn tight to keep out the wind. That will face the north and block our northerly winds. Being made of earth, it will also absorb the suns rays and kind of help heat and protect the livestock.

Since you'll need so much area, your walls aren't high enough to break the wind. Also, if you planted *today*, it might be ready for the 2009-2010 winter. Maybe... ;)

In front of that will be another row of vegetation,probably fir trees that are tight to block any south facing winds, but below enough to allow sunlight over them and into the living barn. In front of that will be a longer row of vegetation that is pretty much there just to act as a snow fence.

Travis, this is Maine. It ain't stonehenge... ;) It would be tough to work the angles on that one.

Now for shade I can do a few things. I can plant some bigger trees such as Spruce or Fir that will help keep the rain off the inside of the living barn, or I can make a trellis over the barn and use deciduous vines to help shade the interior of the barn in the summer. If I can find the right type of vine, maybe ones with broad leaves, it will reduce the amount of rainfall inside the barn as well :dunno:

Rainfall, inside and out, would be exactly, *exactly*, the same. And if the vines would cover over, they'd also shade the permanent plantings.

The final design will certain have drain tiles that drain water from inside the barn where excess manure will collect and deposit it into a wood chip filled trench.

This would work great in spring and summer. But in a maine winter? I had the impression the ground froze in your neck of the woods... ;) Now, that would be some mess...

I don't think this barn will be much cheaper then a conventional barn, but it will certainly be "green". It will also never deteriorate though the plantings may require pruning and maintenance.

Hmm... somehow I think I've heard that one before: "the garden plantings will be permanent. Heck, they almost take care of themselves..." ;)

Its kind of thinking outside the box, but what is your take on this idea of building a barn 'green'...literally? Will it work, or is it just too over the top? Let the darts be thrown...

I don't want to throw any darts. But I also don't want those sheep to suffer. After all, I'm from the greater West, where we're quite fond of sheep... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
No problem Bill but I am not sure we are on the same page here. I think you are thinking far more complex then I am.

The first point is the size. I am coming up with a 24 foot diamter circle for a size. Now I have changed my design from a shape like this I ) to this ( ) to get more room and because sheep love curves over straight walls. The other thing to keep in mind is the "flocking" nature of sheep. We hate to get crowded into a subway train but sheep actually prefer it, especially in the safety of a barn. Not as much space is needed for a sheep versus other livestock types.

As for a wall height, I think a berm of soil 5-6 feet high, with a row of trees above that will block the wind. Its been noted that lambs on pasture often crouch behind tuffs of orchard grass which is big enough to block the wind. Since sheep are only slightly taller then a big dog, I think they could get out of the wind easy enough.

As for the cost of plantings and trees, I don't think it would take that long to grow, at least not the wind break trees. Instead of buying those and planting them, you could dig trees right off the farm and transport them to the berms and snow fence areas. You would have a higher mortality rate, but at least you are only paying for the machine to dig them up (tree spade) and they are the size you need already and will only grow bigger.

As for the snow fence angles, you got me on that one. At least in any other spot. I was thinking site specific which limits my thinking. Here, I face the North which is where the prevailing wind comes from, so my North side berm/trees would be higher. I need to block the wind...period, as there is no sunlight to "catch". The south side would be different because we don't get much wind from the south and when it does come, its generally warm. So in my case, I could have a shorter south wall, and allow the light to come in. The snow fence would be quite aways away. The only reason it is there is to keep the Barn from being drifted in with snow, but that would be on the North side and not the south side anyway. (I was not thinking about that on my original post).

I think there would be a reduction in rainfall, depending on the type of vine used on the trellis. Obviously a spruce tree is not a house, but yet in a rain storm its often dry under underneath the big, spread out branches. I know I have seen bikers without rain gear run underneath the shelter of a big tree during a downpour and I could see sheep doing the same thing. Its not a true barn, but its better then nothing, and as I said earlier,they have lanolin covered wool so rain doesn't bother them. An ice storm though...yeah that might concern me.

As for the ground freezing, depending on what you used for bedding it wouldn't. Not with sheep lying on it, and the straw, manure and urine composting (with its resulting heat) into a big pile. If you fed them hay in there, the wasted hay would also accumulate and the floor would be pretty well protected from freezing. It would depend on the number of sheep, the severity of the winter and other factors though.

Finally we get to garden plantings. I am not sure what you mean by that. No garden plantings here. These would be trees,other then the vines. I know there would be no weeding because sheep prefer weeds over grass. Anywhere there was no fence, you would have a well manicured lawn since these guys graze real low to the ground. In fact in Maine people are realizing its cheaper to put up a sheep fence and have sheep graze it then it is to bushog it every year...and it looks better to boot.

Nice discussion butI have to go feed the sheep now. :)
 
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