Hey Travis, your not the only one

Don't get the loan!!! Stick with the plan. You sell lambs, you buy ewe's. Sell some firewood, buy some ewe's

I think you better get started cutting firewood

What you are seeing is price dwell. The price for fertilizer did go up because its derived from natural gas. The price is high right now, because when they made the product, the price was at the highest gas prices had ever been. They cannot just drop the price

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Suppliers here are not expecting it to come down. Even if energy prices stay low.

I can't say that; conventional, organic, natural or otherwise. In the short 34 years I have been alive I have seen us change numerous times. We tend to follow the markets because that's what it takes. You can't sell something that no one wants.

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You missing my point, even if the organic market dries up and I have to sell on the conventional market, I'm still going to raise it organic. My nephew and I have had this discussion, we may drop the certification but we will still maintain all of our records we keep now. If organic rebounds we simply re-certify. With oeffa all you have to do is fill out land use statements, of course if they spot check you and find chemical traces in your soil samples your done.


Free Range, the pigs and chickens at my brothers are free range, it's part of the certification, You have to have have so many square feet per animal, and they have to have free access to it. Free range doesn't exactly mean free like in the old days out west. Ron has 10, 6 acre lots for 30 brood cows. I'm not sure how big and how many lots he has for the feeders. The have to be rotated on a schedule and he has to keep a record of that schedule. Then they had to be laid out so the cows have access to the loafing shed. This year he spent $70,000 on high tensile fence, water lines and troughs. He is planning on bumping the brood cows up to 60 over the next 2 years.

Never even heard of one to be honest with you.

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I can show you three within 40 miles of me. Fishers has been there doing grass fed 25 years.

Stick with the plan Mr. Johnson. Stick with the plan

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EXACTLY!!

Sorry I have not got back to this until now, but I have been doing that whole work thing and did not get much computer time.

Anyway it was interesting to read the certification aspect of free-range. In some ways I understand,as they simply defied free-range. You can't really say "hey that's not free range" when there is no true definition. Still its a marketing ploy too. I think when most people think of free-range, they don't think what amounts to overly sizing MIGing as free-range. In that respect I think its kind of mis-leading. I think its one of those things that started out in poultry and the other farmers said "we can adapt that to beef, sheep and swine."

Here free-range means your neighbors chickens are always out in the road. When someone complains they call it "free-range" and then cite the Right to Farm Laws. Not sure how far that would go in court though.

Still it would be interesting to find the free-range definitions. I got 4 sheep on 2 acres, but am slowly expanding every weekend. Next Spring I am in hopes to be at 7 acres or so with 10 sheep. Since the stocking rate is about 8 sheep per acre, I am well above that. In fact if I use proper MIG strategies the NRCS calculates that I can get about 150 Ewes on the 12 acres I have devoted to sheep. That's why I was curious as to what the true free-range definitions are now. I might qualify?

Robert Mickley said:

Don't get the loan!!! Stick with the plan. You sell lambs, you buy ewe's. Sell some firewood, buy some ewe's

I think you better get started cutting firewood

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No...no firewood. Pulpwood to make paper.

It's a long story but back in the late 80's the local potato farmer went out of business. I don't know how many thousands of acres of land he had tied up in potatoes, but it was a lot. Suddenly the dairy farmers had more tillable land then they could handle. The guy renting our fields had so much acreage he literally did not know what to do with it. He kept the big fields and let the small fields sit fallow. We put up with that for a few years then said..."we got to do something", so we planted trees in them.

The paper companies were giving away trees at the time, a hybrid-hackmatack that grew fast, but is a softwood tree. Unfortunately these trees are prone to bark beetles (even the native species) and so the 12 acres of trees are now infested with these bark beetles. So I have been cutting these trees in an effort to make way for the sheep. They are small, but slowly adding up as far as truck loads go. I probably have 180 cord or so to cut, but its hard telling, the trees are small.

The good thing is, they are planted in rows, so as I divide the fields into paddocks, I pick a row of trees and cut them at 42" instead of at the ground, that way I don't have to sink posts in the ground for my fences. Just pound in insulators and string wires. Every once and awhile I have to add a fence post where the trees have died off, but not very often which is convenient.

I'm also finding out that keeping sheep inside a fence is a lot easier then what you read. I think the fence companies want you to think sheep are tough animals to keep penned up. I got a few places that border the lawn where I don't want electric fence because of the kids playing, so those places will need page wire fencing (50 cents a linear foot), but in the other areas 3 strand electric is working just fine which is about 13 cents a foot if I am doing my math right.

I'm not sure how fertilizer CAN stay high. Already they are predicting fuel prices to continue to drop and that demand is going to be down for the the remainder of this year, AND next year too. This is both in the developing countries, and in wealthy countries. As I said before, synthetic fertilizers use natural gas to produce, so if the main ingredient comes down in price, then I can't see how it would stay high to be honest with you.

I'll do a bit of poking around and see what I can find out.

From wikipedia.org.........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range

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The USDA has no specific definition for "free-range" beef, pork, and other non-poultry products. All USDA definitions of "free-range" refer specifically to poultry. No other criteria-such as the size of the range or the amount of space given to each animal-are required before beef, lamb, and pork can be called "free-range". Claims and labeling using "free range" are therefore unregulated. The USDA relies "upon producer testimonials to support the accuracy of these claims."

Barry Stratton said:

From wikipedia.org.........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range

________________________
The USDA has no specific definition for "free-range" beef, pork, and other non-poultry products. All USDA definitions of "free-range" refer specifically to poultry. No other criteria-such as the size of the range or the amount of space given to each animal-are required before beef, lamb, and pork can be called "free-range". Claims and labeling using "free range" are therefore unregulated. The USDA relies "upon producer testimonials to support the accuracy of these claims."

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Thats only if your USDA certified organic.
Both OCIA and OEFFA have requirements, neither of which I am familiar with since I'm interested in raising grain. You don't need to fence grain

You have to be certified to use the organic label, but your not required to be USDA certified. Meat sold by my brother and his neighbor is slaughtered in a USDA certified slaughter house. Thats just certifying that it was processed for sale, not that it is organic. Are you confused yet?

Travis Johnson said:

I'm not sure how fertilizer CAN stay high.

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Simply because they can. They could drop the price, but they don't have to.

Get prepared the predictions are seed will take a $100 jump per bag.

Travis Johnson said:

The good thing is, they are planted in rows, so as I divide the fields into paddocks, I pick a row of trees and cut them at 42" instead of at the ground, that way I don't have to sink posts in the ground for my fences. Just pound in insulators and string wires. Every once and awhile I have to add a fence post where the trees have died off, but not very often which is convenient.

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Thats cheating!!!!!! GOOD JOB!

Robert Mickley said:

Thats only if your USDA certified organic.
Both OCIA and OEFFA have requirements, neither of which I am familiar with since I'm interested in raising grain. You don't need to fence grain

You have to be certified to use the organic label, but your not required to be USDA certified. Meat sold by my brother and his neighbor is slaughtered in a USDA certified slaughter house. Thats just certifying that it was processed for sale, not that it is organic. Are you confused yet?

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What was happening was people were using different sets of standards all over the US and yet all selling the stuff as "organic". The USDA stepped in and said their has to be a set of standards here, so they created the USDA NOS, which stands for National Organic Standards.

Their can be different labels and different standards...higher or lower, but if it has a USDA Organic label on the package it had better meet NOS Rules. Woe to the seller who tries to cash in on the USDA NOS and does not adhere to those minimal standards.

Now here in Maine there is a monopoly on the certification process. The Maine Organic Farmers and Garden Association (MOFGA) certifies all Organic food, whether under their rules, or under USDA NOS rules.

What I dislike is that MOFGA Rules require the fee to be on a sliding income scale. The more household income you have, the higher the fee. It's supposed to level the playing field and allow low income, start up farmers in on it, and have the larger established farmers pay more if they want in on the organic marketing craze. Why should an established farmer, that has proven they have the moxie to stay in such a difficult occupation pay more for the same thing? Agreeably I need to abide by health regulations and best farming practices to be able to sell food to US consumers, but I don't need to hide behind a certification of any kind in order to keep farming. I can do that by reducing my farming costs and being adaptable.

Robert Mickley said:

Thats cheating!!!!!! GOOD JOB!

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Yeah and I had help too. Yesterday was Friday, or Daddy Daughter Day as I call it because I don't work as a machinist, and my wife...a teacher...must work, so I have the baby all day.

Its tougher getting things done as she is in potty-training and doing quite well, but just doesn't understand that you can go bathroom outside. That means its run back to the house every time she has to go "potty". When you are trying to build fence, it can drive you crazy. Yesterday we managed to get another ½ acre fenced in. It's not a lot, but its a gain and not a loss but had to do so in the rain which was kind of miserable.

Robert Mickley said:

Simply because they can. They could drop the price, but they don't have to.

Get prepared the predictions are seed will take a $100 jump per bag.

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Not so...this was the latest info I found and it is only 15 days old. It supports what I have been saying all along. Fertilizer is not rising, but plummeting.

Fertilizer Prices Plummet

As inventories rise and manufacturers close plants, the industry sees a sharp response to lower demand.
(11/1/2008)
Bryce Knorr

After watching fertilizer prices fall sharply on international markets, manufacturers around the world are cutting back production in response to lower demand. The latest moves come as producers wrap up harvest in the Midwest and try to decide whether to book expensive inputs for the 2009 corn crop.

Farm level prices remain at history highs as international prices fall, but that may be about to change. At last one major supplier in the eastern Corn Belt has said it will be forced to write down certain inventories due to weaker prices.

Sorry, posted too soon. I found info posted yesterday on fertilizer prices. I still think fertilizer is going down. The USDA may not think so, but just yesterday China eliminated the export tax on fertilizer, so its going to undercut and flood the US market in order to keep their own economy afloat. Unless an import tax is put in place, which is unlikely, I think fertilizer is going to drop and continue to drop well into 2009. It's going to follow the natural gas prices which are also predicted to drop into the summer of 2009.

Fertilizer prices drop further, but bottom may be close
Weekly Fertilizer Review for Nov. 14, 2008

Fertilizer prices remain on a downward spiral, with news of more plant shutdowns surfacing around the world this week, even as the industry met in Charleston, S.C., for its annual outlook conference.

The good news is that wholesale prices for most products in the U.S. are now starting to reflect the freefall seen internationally. Anhydrous ammonia at the Gulf was quoted at $317 a short ton, down more than $200 from last week and $525 off its highs from earlier in the fall. If international prices are any indication, ammonia may have more room to fall, with the short ton forward price out of the Black Sea down to $208. That would translate into a farm gate price of around $500 a ton or less, so producers should be urging their suppliers to start looking for product and getting deals together.
This unfortunately may be difficult to do. Some suppliers are still sitting on high-priced inventory they may be forced to write down. Others may find it difficult to obtain credit, or to get barges up river before it closes for the season. As a result, USDA quoted farm gate prices in Illinois at little changed from fall highs, averaging $1,125 a ton.

Meanwhile, natural gas in storage increased 62 billion cubic feet in the latest week, more than the 45 bcf expected by analysts. The government earlier in the week said industrial demand for gas is expected to fall due to the weak economy, with prices average $6.82, $1.35 lower than its previous forecast and less than 2007.

Travis Johnson said:

What was happening was people were using different sets of standards all over the US and yet all selling the stuff as "organic". The USDA stepped in and said their has to be a set of standards here, so they created the USDA NOS, which stands for National Organic Standards.

Their can be different labels and different standards...higher or lower, but if it has a USDA Organic label on the package it had better meet NOS Rules. Woe to the seller who tries to cash in on the USDA NOS and does not adhere to those minimal standards.

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The only reason the USDA stepped in was big business.
Corporations wanted in on the deal, but didn't want to meet the strict criteria set by the independents for certification. The USDA set a minimum set of standards.

You DO NOT have to be certified by the USDA, you only have to be approved by a sanctioning body to be certified
We don't use the USDA certified label.
Our processed meets do have the second label, which says nothing about organic.
We use the third label.

The USDA criteria is so loose it is funny.

Agreeably I need to abide by health regulations and best farming practices to be able to sell food to US consumers, but I don't need to hide behind a certification of any kind in order to keep farming. I can do that by reducing my farming costs and being adaptable.

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No one here is hiding behind a label. All that label says is your doing your part in obeying the organic standard. IF you want to sell lamb to the public, your going to have a USDA process verified label. Are you hiding behind that? No your not. It's just a label that says your lamb is safe to eat.
Well safe to eat according to our government

AS for MOFGA, we have had this discussion before and I agree with you on their fees. So certify with someone else.
You don't have to certify through them. We use OEFFA and my brother lives in PA.

As for the fertilizer, I hope it does fall in price. It has to for farmers to stay in farming. Theres guys here that didn't plant wheat this year because of fertilizer prices. The high cost of fertilizer has driven up the cost or our organic fertilizer due to some guys using it instead of chemical fertilizer.

Robert Mickley said:

The only reason the USDA stepped in was big business.
Corporations wanted in on the deal, but didn't want to meet the strict criteria set by the independents for certification. The USDA set a minimum set of standards.

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I probably would not go as far as to say the "only" reason, but it sure was a big one. I would more likely say that they stepped in because organic food in general was getting to be big business. As long as things stay on the smaller, niche side, they kind of stand back, but once it reaches a certain threshold, they step in.

Robert Mickley said:

You DO NOT have to be certified by the USDA, you only have to be approved by a sanctioning body to be certified
We don't use the USDA certified label.
Our processed meets do have the second label, which says nothing about organic.
We use the third label.

The USDA criteria is so loose it is funny.

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Now that I agree 100% with you on. I told my wife awhile ago that if an organic farm reaches a certain loss in production, then they can revert back to conventional farming and yet still retain that organic label until production reaches that certain level again. She thought I was crazy and argued with me saying something like that would never fly. A year ago organic food hit an all time high and producers could not keep up so sure enough, here comes the non-organic practices. It hit the papers too and people were stunned.

Robert Mickley said:

No one here is hiding behind a label. All that label says is your doing your part in obeying the organic standard. IF you want to sell lamb to the public, your going to have a USDA process verified label. Are you hiding behind that? No your not. It's just a label that says your lamb is safe to eat.
Well safe to eat according to our government

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Yeah I was out of line on that one if the truth be told. I thought about what I said later and realizedI was just plain wrong there.

Robert Mickley said:

AS for MOFGA, we have had this discussion before and I agree with you on their fees. So certify with someone else.
You don't have to certify through them. We use OEFFA and my brother lives in PA.

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I'll stick with conventional for now. Raising lamb organically would be tough anyway.

Robert Mickley said:

As for the fertilizer, I hope it does fall in price. It has to for farmers to stay in farming. Theres guys here that didn't plant wheat this year because of fertilizer prices. The high cost of fertilizer has driven up the cost or our organic fertilizer due to some guys using it instead of chemical fertilizer.

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This was funny to me, because it kind of went along with my gut instinct. Yet you and I are both right. The price is tanking, but I think you will see one little blip on the radar, such as an early ice over on the Mississippi, additional ethanol legislation, or some other quirk and the price will spike again just so the fertilizer companies can reap some of the profits they are going to lose by dropping the price. But at the same time, I think the American consumer is fed up of high food prices too and historically they rule.

You guys are making me feel really really old... All this talk about tractor brands.. I know JD, but some of the others don't ring any bells... I left the farm at an early age, but when I still lived on the farm with my dad, tractors were IH, Farmall (we grew cotton in west Texas as a share cropper and this was what the owner had and before that he farmed in east Texas with a pair of green broke mules pulling the plows and cultivators), Ferguson and later Massey Ferguson and my uncle had 100+ acres that he farmed with a Ford Tractor.. kinda little thing. Uncle was a huge man, about 6'+ and weight about 250 + .. mostly all muscle and he always looked bigger than his tractor. He did mostly cattle though, so I guess the tractor did whatever he needed. I've actually seen him and my cousin - who was a year younger than me, but about 4 years bigger, load cattle with two axe handles... if the cow wouldn't step up into the trailor, the would put the axe handles under her belly and lift her into the trailor.. In a day when a 100 lb tow sack of feed weighed almost as much as I did (at 15 and 6' tall.. turned sideways I didn't cast a shadow), I've seen my uncle and my cousin each reach down and grab the ear of the sack, flex their arms upward lifting both sacks off the floor and walking them to whereever they needed them.

I left the farm when we still pulled cotton by hand, dragging a 6 yard sack in fields that ran a mile + long in the rows.

BTW farming is way too much work for my way of thinking... it's definitely an occupation you have to love.

Yeah I was out of line on that one if the truth be told. I thought about what I said later and realized I was just plain wrong there.

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I wouldn't say you where wrong, Since there are some that do hide behind those labels.

Now that I agree 100% with you on. I told my wife awhile ago that if an organic farm reaches a certain loss in production, then they can revert back to conventional farming and yet still retain that organic label until production reaches that certain level again.

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Only if your USDA certified. We can't. If we revert back and get caught OEFFA would yank our certification in a second. No ifs ands or buts.

Barry Stratton said:

From wikipedia.org.........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range

________________________
The USDA has no specific definition for "free-range" beef, pork, and other non-poultry products. All USDA definitions of "free-range" refer specifically to poultry. No other criteria-such as the size of the range or the amount of space given to each animal-are required before beef, lamb, and pork can be called "free-range". Claims and labeling using "free range" are therefore unregulated. The USDA relies "upon producer testimonials to support the accuracy of these claims."

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I am a prolific record keeper and since I know Excel quite well, I keep track of a lot of stuff. One of those things is the amount of time the sheep stay in confinement. It used to be 0% because I left them out on pasture 24/7, but then I got my electric bill. I don't have a LGD here so to keep the coyotes at bay, I kept the lights on, and my place can look like Leavenworth when its lit up. When the electric bill doubled, I rethought my plan.

Now they are kept inside from 19:30 to 05:30 and then are free to roam the pastures during the day. By being inside I can shut off all the lights and even the fence charger and really reduce my electric bill for keeping these sheep...all without worry of a coyote grabbing one. I'm sure this is hardly considered free range though, but it works for me.

Yesterday I kept them in all day only because we had torrential downpours and high winds and I was working on making a chute for them. The Ram likes to...well ram you...when you turn your back so working around him can be a pain in the hiney..literally, so I kept them penned up. What a pain building that chute though, it took me all day to make something that looks kind of easy to make. The torrential rain did not help but I'll be darned if I was not out in it all day.

It was worth it though, sheep are unlike cattle in that their only defense is to run and with 270º field of vision and fast legs, they are very good at playing keep away. A chute is like a funnel that it traps the sheep so they can only pass through the chute one at a time. With doors on each side, you can trap a sheep and then administer shots, deworm and tag sheep. The latter is something I have to do now, but being able to work on one sheep at a time is really nice.

Ultimately I need to build a squeeze,which is something I have plans for, I just need to start making it. A squeeze is a rotating table that lets you work on their hooves and stuff. You plunk a sheep on its back and it becomes immobile...docile really...something called casting. It can't right itself and it won't even struggle, it's actually odd to see. But my sheep are one of the biggest breeds of sheep and I can't cast them by strength so I need to build a squeeze. It won't be easy, it has to be rugged and has lots of moving parts. Good thing I am both a woodworker AND a fabricator.

Chuck Ellis said:

You guys are making me feel really really old... All this talk about tractor brands.. I know JD, but some of the others don't ring any bells... I left the farm at an early age, but when I still lived on the farm with my dad, tractors were IH, Farmall (we grew cotton in west Texas as a share cropper and this was what the owner had and before that he farmed in east Texas with a pair of green broke mules pulling the plows and cultivators), Ferguson and later Massey Ferguson and my uncle had 100+ acres that he farmed with a Ford Tractor.. kinda little thing. Uncle was a huge man, about 6'+ and weight about 250 + .. mostly all muscle and he always looked bigger than his tractor. He did mostly cattle though, so I guess the tractor did whatever he needed. I've actually seen him and my cousin - who was a year younger than me, but about 4 years bigger, load cattle with two axe handles... if the cow wouldn't step up into the trailor, the would put the axe handles under her belly and lift her into the trailor.. In a day when a 100 lb tow sack of feed weighed almost as much as I did (at 15 and 6' tall.. turned sideways I didn't cast a shadow), I've seen my uncle and my cousin each reach down and grab the ear of the sack, flex their arms upward lifting both sacks off the floor and walking them to whereever they needed them.

I left the farm when we still pulled cotton by hand, dragging a 6 yard sack in fields that ran a mile + long in the rows.

BTW farming is way too much work for my way of thinking... it's definitely an occupation you have to love.

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I was surprised when Alfred...a long standing dairy farmer,told me recently he had an enormous amount of respect for the part time farmers. He said that he makes a living doing what he does, but the part-time farmers do it because they just love to do what they do. As he said,"they can't be making any money at it," and he is probably right.

He cited a guy near me that has kept 30 head of beef cows for years and while he could spend his money on many things, he constantly buys equipment and keeps his little farm up and running while working a full time job. I was just surprised Alfred would say this, but in a way he is right. As I get older I realize that smaller farms are just as important as the bigger farms. A guy near me has 5 acres of land and grows enough food on it to sustain 100 people for the year. That's pretty productive land if you ask me.

As for the work though, I find myself working in inclement weather a lot now and don't even bother to check the weather forecast. Why bother, I am going to be out in it no matter what it's doing outside? Last year at this time I was snowmobiling, so the fact that its raining and not snowing means the ground isn't frozen yet and I can get some more fence posts in. Or get some gravel in for a base on my up coming sheep squeeze I got to make, or get some green chop put up for the sheep. That is the thing with farming, you have to realize what you have to do today because of these things, and what can be put off until tomorrow.