why is it?

larry merlau

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Delton, Michigan
that we hear about the turners selling all there wares rather easily but the flat folk are either not gettin sales or arent talking about it.. we have quite a few of each in this forum and the turners are hands down the "most sold product" from the sounds?? what is the reason for that in your opinion?,, and what does the flat folk need to do to gain some of there good fortune?
 
It's Just turners like to gloat more. based no doubt, on a deep seated needed for approval steming from their childhood. ;):D . But seriously, I do both flat and round, but I get more excited when I sell a round thing cause I'm a relative newb to turning, whereas I've sold many, many flatwork pieces.
 
very few folks are going to spend more than a couple hundred bucks on wooden items in todays economy.
a couple hundred bucks for a spun chunk of firewood leaves room for some profit.
a couple hundred bucks for a flat piece that uses 50-75bf puts the craftsman in the hole.
now the cuttingboard/nick-knack folks might be turning over some inventory but i don`t know.
heck i've stepped down to being a "house carpenter" from building furniture just to put beans on the table.:eek:
 
I think Stu and Tod have got it. It is easier for folks to pick out a Spinny, take it home and set on the shelf of a display case than it is to select that display case. Larger pieces generally need to "fit" with the overall household style (not that the Spinny doesn't need to "fit" as well).

A beautiful bowl can be selected by itself and be just the right touch while setting on an end table or an occasional table. The end table is not generally a "one-off" but is instead part of a set that goes hand in hand with the other end table, the coffee table, the bookshelves, blah, blah.
 
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very few folks are going to spend more than a couple hundred bucks on wooden items in todays economy.
a couple hundred bucks for a spun chunk of firewood leaves room for some profit.
a couple hundred bucks for a flat piece that uses 50-75bf puts the craftsman in the hole.
now the cuttingboard/nick-knack folks might be turning over some inventory but i don`t know.
heck i've stepped down to being a "house carpenter" from building furniture just to put beans on the table.:eek:

well at least yu and barry had some realist thoughts:) i knew i would probally get kicked in the behind from the enemy:) seeun as how i am defiantly on the other team:D:thumb: its sad that its that way..because that can help to solidify the woodworking skill, if there were some relief for the flat folk as well.. i had looked the other day in a fabric craft store chain and thier little pine flat stuff was very cheap... they had a normal looking, if it were 50 yrs ago, onion crate. made and shot together with brads and painted for 12 dollars.. i dont think you could start the power for 12 dollars unless you had a order for several hundred...so are the flat folk doomed in the future?
 
Larry, I don't think turners are selling much stuff these days either, it's just that when they do, they make more noise about it. I passed on a couple of big arts and crafts festivals here this spring cause the odds of coming out ahead didn't look good.
 
yeah its kinda like alex's nice desk he was tryun to sell,, definatly worth the price if yu have ever done anything of that nature to know,,, and yet the gallery was gonna take half of the price just for having it in there show room?? that sure cuts into the profit margin.. even for skilled folks like alex or others. yu mentioned the shows and they get a fair price just to have you come to try and sell your wares??? would seem that the price should be minimal.. but from what i have heard is isnt..
 
I completely agree with what Tod and Glenn stated, besides a turner can get bowl done in a couple of hours, maybe three, while it is difficult to have something done in flatwork in a couple of hours unless it is something really easy and quick to do like a simple candle holder or similar.

A simple box can take more than that if some sort of joinery is to be used.

Besides, a bowl can be bought by anybody as a present to someone, while a piece of furniture is more difficult thing to sell as a present.

Another issue, and I do not want to start a war here is that when turning you see the piece take form in real time under your hands/tools while on flatwork, one only sees a whole bunch of pieces for days until we start assembling them.

Most of us need to have quick or inmediate rewards to what we are doing and turning gives it while flatwork doesn't. Maybe this is the reason why it appeals more to certain people.

Hey! we could start making a psychological investigation on why some of us are more prone to flatwork and others to turning! And why some previous flatworkers have been "abduced" to turning:D:D
 
I think that there will always be a market for flatwork. Just as there are discerning people who appreciate well made jewelry and art so too does flatwork fit in to this category.

The issue to me is being able to access this market of people.

I see it in two levels.

a) Those that are looking for custom fitted furniture like a library, home office, entertainment wall unit etc and want the item to blend in and match their home as well as theme or furniture.

b) Those that want an heritage artistic piece that will grow in value over the years and oneday become a collectors item.

There is certainly a degree of sophistication aparent in these buyers. To start with they value longevity of an object rather than built in obsolescence.

As one of my friends said to me, while we were discussing the demise of a local custome cabinet maker, in his view people in production homes are not there to stay. They just need the HD kitchen to be able to be clean and functional at the lowest price since they are either up for a change in 5-10 years or going to move to another house.

If one there examines either of group a) or b) above, it will not be sufficient to be a competent woodworker in order to reach them. You as an individual have to become a brand. There are other skills required that will go along with the woodworking craftsmanship.

Some of these characteristics that i see are:

* Design ability - Simply nailing and gluing a few sheets of plywood together and adding a purchased automatic manufactured final or leg is not going to cut it. Design (which our great Toni is an expert on) is a evolving changing element that moves with the time, cultures and moods. Its not about inginuity. Usually there is an element of something influencing the design just as in the creation of music, poetry, literature or art.
* Artistic and creative ability.- I might have had the ability to write a piece of software or design a electronic circuit, but when it comes to wwing, I am no Green and Green. However I dont intend to be able to pad my tool budget with sales of my hobby let alone make a living from it.
* Communication skills to be able to articulate the story of the wood, the story of the design and the story of the build. People need some of this background to enrich the whole process. Just take how we all follow a story such as Alex making his desk. The buyer needs elements of this info to be able to "inform" (I would call it boast or brag) visitors who inquire or remark about the object in order to affirm the acquisition or savor the appreciation (depending on their type) of the object. That said a simple onion crate aint going to do it. Thats for mass producers to make.
*Personality and character. Its no use just being a hermit and expecting people to buy thousand dollar items off a website. You have to be accessible and engaging and somewhat of an interesting character.
*Then as a final feature one has to consider doing exactly what you are wanting your customer to do. If they are not going to buy mass produced or make it themselves, ie they are going "oursource" their requirements to you, you need to recognize that you need to "outsource" some of your needs to others that are experts in their field. Here I primarily think in terms of marketing. We might all be able to learn in todays climate how to put a website together or use "publisher" (I am going to get batted for this by someone I know) or "adobe" etc But putting words on paper or screen aint the issue. Its what words and where to put them and then the whole aspect of how to get these in front of the audience we need to read them in order to generate the interest that will result in the potential of a sale. Thats a whole new world. Yet how many woodworkers do this well. We are somewhat technical and so think of ourselves as jack of all trades. Yet the other side of this is masters of none.:(

So sorry for the long diatribe type post but these are my thoughts for guys in not only flatwork but ww itself that impact upon the element of whether there is a market for flatwork today.

Simple case in point, there is more to picture framing than cutting a mitred joint in a piece of wood. I can do the joint but as for which wood and what background color etc I am an idiot.:rofl:

Final thought, I have a friend that markets diamonds, even in tough times people are still buying them. Small ones and investment ones.

There is market for flatwork for sure.:thumb:
 
To reinforce what Tod said, I think most turners have more "low dollar" items available for sale that most flatworkers. The most expensive piece I have right now is priced at about $300, and it was made from free wood. (It did take much more than three or four hours to complete, though.) That $300 would be about the starting price for a flatworker's products (unless we're talking about cutting boards and such), and chances are the flatworker had to pay for his wood. One of the reasons I quit making cutting boards for sale was due to the cost of materials compared to the price I could charge. I can charge more money for roundwork, while still using less expensive materials.

That said, I think with the current economy there will be fewer folks buying the $150 to $300 "art" pieces at the shows this year. I know I'm currently increasing my inventory of the $15 to $30 stuff, just to hedge my bets. ;)
 
...so are the flat folk doomed in the future?

There is no way you can compete with the MDF and particle board furniture that comes form China etc. On the other hand the Fine Woodworking magazine had an article a few month back where somebody paid several million bucks to have period furniture made out of Peruvian Mahogany. But it took a year per piece per craftsman and the skill involved in building it is obviously beyond most of us. Myself I just don't built anything for sale, I build for the sheer enjoyment of it.

DKT
 
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