Dovetails, pins first-tails first complete different techniques.

Are you a pins first or a tails first maker?

  • Pins first

    Votes: 9 18.4%
  • Tails first

    Votes: 21 42.9%
  • I'm so good at dovetails that I use both at random

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I use my router jig so I don't care

    Votes: 19 38.8%

  • Total voters
    49
Messages
5,629
Location
Catalunya
Hi there.

As you know each day before working on whatever project I’m working on I cut a set of dovetails to keep on practising and improving my technique.
I take it as some sort of warming up exercise and honestly, I doesn’t take more than 10 or 15 minutes and it pays off.

A couple of weeks ago as I want to master all techniques I started making two sets instead of one, one cutting tails first and the other pins first.

What was my surprise when I found that they are completely different techniques.
If I use the pins first technique with the saw settings or distances from the lines that I use on the tails first the joint becomes too tight, up to the point of splitting the wood.
I’ve found that I need to split the line, then I get a perfect joint, better and more consistent in result than with the tails first technique.

On the other hand, if I use the pins first distances on the tails first technique the joint becomes too loose and the joint lines are too evident.

Before finding this I thought that there wouldn’t be any differences and that it was a matter or personal preference using one system or the other.

Has any of you found the same or is it that my sawing technique is poor? Now I have to decide for one of them because switching from one to the other will lead to errors for sure.

Las but not least, I hope to have explained myself properly and by no means would I want this post to be the beginning of an endless debate between pins first or tails first.

Just for my info feel free to vote on the poll
 
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I like to do tails first, I find I can design the dovetails to fit the piece of wood better by doing tails first, I've only ever seen one person cut dovetails in person, me, so who knows, I might be all wet about this :D :wave:
 
I do tails first as I find it easier to hold the tails against the end of the "pin" board to mark it.
 

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I used to do pins first, but found it easier to do tails first. I'll explain, when I cut the pins first my sawing for the tails must match an angle on the verticle plane. When I cut the tails first, there can be slight differences on the verticle plane without any problem, since the pins are cut to match. The pin angle is with the saw verticle, but rotated on the horizontal plane, which is much easier to handle for me. I'm sure it reflects a lack in sawing skills, but it is really much easier to produce decent results.

For what it's worth.
 
I learned from Tage Frid's books. Pins first. Once I tried tails first, though, I have come to prefer it. When making a box, I'll tape the sides together, and cut both sets of tails at once. This saves time, gives me a wider platform to saw on, and provides better matching of the tail placement and size. Toni, your observations are very interesting.
 
Tch tch, what would you do then with your dovetail saws? :D:D
I've got to go along with Toni Ciuraneta ,hand cut those dovetails-I know dovetail jigs have there place in production shops but if your like me and made one piece at a time the hand cut dovetail says I'm a craftsman,I'm an artisan and I have confidence in my work ,I mean if I used a jig on what I do it would be like taking a store bought templet and spray painting my name on the back of the piece-( I carefully carve my mark and the date somewhere hid in each piece) and machined dovetails always look like machine dovetails-
hand cut dovetails are a signature -
DSC_0034.jpg


alex
 
I've got to go along with Toni Ciuraneta ,hand cut those dovetails-I know dovetail jigs have there place in production shops but if your like me and made one piece at a time the hand cut dovetail says I'm a craftsman,I'm an artisan and I have confidence in my work ,I mean if I used a jig on what I do it would be like taking a store bought templet and spray painting my name on the back of the piece-( I carefully carve my mark and the date somewhere hid in each piece) and machined dovetails always look like machine dovetails-
hand cut dovetails are a signature -
DSC_0034.jpg


alex

I really appreciate and I'm very envious of the skills that fine craftsmen have, but if I use a dovetail jig, mortise machine, table saw, or dado blade to build a piece, I am not any less proud of my work than if I used a hand tool.
 
I really appreciate and I'm very envious of the skills that fine craftsmen have, but if I use a dovetail jig, mortise machine, table saw, or dado blade to build a piece, I am not any less proud of my work than if I used a hand tool.
Far sure you should always be proud of your work and I'm not talking about tables saws ,mortice machines are what have you (there have been plenty of pictures of my shop posted on this site and lots of pictures of my work and how I do it) what I'm talking about is the dovetail joint, hand cut this one joint is looked on as a signature of fine workmanship-and hand cut dovetails aren't really that hard to do-it's more that it borders monotony--


alex
 
Will be offering a one day class on hand cut dovetails

I'm interested in people's comments on hand cut dovetails. I recently committed to teach a one day class on hand cut dovetails. I thinking of teaching through dovetails first, then half blind.

I mostly use a Japanese saw for dovetails but recently ordered a 14tpi and a 20tpi dovetail saw from LV so the students will try a variety of saws. I'll also have some gents saws (fine tooth) for them to use. They'll be no more than 6 people in the class, and probably less.

Any comments on what you think should be in a "hand cut dovetail class" will be appreciated.

Mike

[I'll probably start with defining what a dovetail joint is, then what it's used for. Then the types of dovetails joints, and where you'd use different types of dovetail joints.

Probably then discuss the tools used in dovetail joinery, including how to make your own marking gauge, and how to mark the depth without a marking gauge.

Next, I'll discuss how to layout the dovetails across the board, and what indicates hand cut dovetails compared to machine cut dovetails.

Then demonstrate how to cut a through dovetail, and have the students cut theirs.

Later, demonstrate a half blind and have the students cut theirs.

No project - just pieces of wood joined together.]

[added note: someone suggested having the students do some sawing exercises before cutting the dovetails - I think that's an excellent idea and will incorporate that.]
 
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