Question for you legal types.

Paul Downes

Member
Messages
959
Location
Westphalia, Michigan
I have a friend who is in need of some information regarding a "decertified road" that borders their property. Specifically, these nuns are interested in building a Monastery on this property and wish to have access through a neighbor's property from a paved road, on the “decertified road” which is owned by the county. It is ironic that the neighbors have needled the former owner by driving on or next to the “decertified road” through their (the nuns) property which goes through their front yard.

The neighbors are well known farmers in the county, while the nuns are newcomers. The nuns wish to have good relationships with all their neighbors so they find themselves in a bit of a bind. They want to find out what legal right they might have regarding access without stirring up any angst considering that everyone else around knows everyone else's business as is common in small town and rural communities.

Their own access to their property is from a dirt road and the nearest intersection has a bad reputation for accidents, while the paved road 1/2 mile away is just 100 yards or so off the back of their property and much safer.

Any ideas on how I might proceed?
 
The decertified road is owned by the county?

If so, then their first step will be to go to the county clerk's office and ask about passage. They may also need a "curb cut" permit from the decertified road onto their property. The owner of the road (the county) will have control over use of the road, if right-of-way hasn't been abandoned... and the government nearly never abandons rights of way.
 
Let me preface this buy saying I ain't a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time. It reminds me of when I lived in California. The parish I belonged to wanted a piece of land that was basically lang locked. Someone had planted a cactus pantch on it and the parish had built a garage on part of it. It was what was left of an alley that the city had abandoned. We patitcioned the city and they help an auction which was required by law since the city technicaly still owned the property. The auction was held and no one else bid on the property so we won the auction.
 
Talk to a lawyer that actually knows what the law says. Anything else is hearsay. It's taken me a years to learn that but that is only person I am going to really trust. Well, maybe someone in the local government that actually knows what is going on.

I totally agree with Jeff. Lawyers usually have a free consultation time ( first 1/2 hr) and can give them a better idea of wehat they are up against. I am sure that laws change from state to state, just like province to province here. Land titles office may be able to give some help too but they will tell you that they are not lawyers and that they can't give legal advice.
 
Real estate laws vary greatly state to state. The situation can become very confused when you are talking about vacating, adverse possession, access, etc. How nice the nuns want to be has nothing to do with them possibly trespassing. All parties involved need lawyers who specialize in real estate law.
 
Geez, all you guys worrying about lawyers! Once it's figured out who owns that decomissioned road (the county clerk can tell that immediately), it comes down to getting permission to use it (oral if it's the county, written if it's privately owned). Talk with a lawyer if ya like, but ya know what they'll do? They'll ask the county clerk. If it goes beyond a free first consultation, they'll bill ya two hundred dollars an hour to talk with the county clerk on the phone.

Real estate stuff is SIMPLE. Everything's written out in clear language.
 
That first paragraph is a doozy. I've read it four or five times now and still don't understand what it says. :dunno:

Me too, Kirk, Me Too...

Here, let me try and see if I can figure it out.
(I'll edit in in red what I think this is, and we'll see how wrong I am... :rolleyes:

I have a friend (A) who is in need of some information regarding a "decertified road" that borders their property. Specifically, these nuns (Again, Person A) are interested in building a Monastery on this property and wish to have access through a neighbor's property (Person B) from a paved road, on the “decertified road” which is owned by the county. It is ironic that the neighbors (B) have needled the former owner (who owned the land before A bought it) by driving on or next to the “decertified road” through their (the nuns) (A) property which goes through their front yard.

So A would like to have access to a paved road via a "Decertified Rd" that goes through B's property. ??

Hmm, since the gov't owns the road, wouldn't it be more correct to say that A want's access to an old road, and that B owns the land on either side of this old road and kind of view the road as their own private property?

(ps: I agree with the folks who say "Talk to a local lawyer." Actually if you're lucky there is already a lawyer associated with whatever church these nuns are part of)

Whups, never mind, I missed Tim's comment. That makes even more sense.
 
Are the sisters members of an order? If they are, and it's a large order, they likely have a General Counsel, who handles things like this.

If they're diocesan, the diocese will have a General Counsel.

The best advice I can give is that they should look to their structural resources first, and only later go outside.

Thanks,

Bill
 
Around here a road whether decertified or ancient or whatever is owned by the town no matter what. They claim ownership and right of way. Best to talk to the town or county get their view and then contact a lawyer if problems could pop up with the abutter.
 
Sorry for the confusion. I try to state things concisely and should have taken the time to be clear.

The real problem as presented to me was to make inquires discreetly because these nuns belong to a newly formed religious order, and want to avoid any public attention. Their motivation is to humbly fit into the local community. The local community is somewhat tight knit and it is common for rumor and misconceptions to form which possibly might interfere with their goals. I myself am an outsider, while most of my neighbors are related somewhere in a rather large family tree. I joke with the locals that I had to get a green card to move into their community.

In addition to these nuns being new to the community most of them do not speak much English.
Until they have a green light from the bishop of our diocese they do not want it public knowledge what their plans are. However, they are trying to get some of the planning figured out and this is where I have been helping them. I thought this forum might be a nice anonymous place to get a few ideas. I do happen to know of an attorney who might be willing to help them so I will probably make an inquiry.

I have read about legal disputes over such roads in Michigan that sounded real ugly so I was kind of fishing around to see what might surface. I just so happens that I have another friend who has a decertified road bordering their property. Maybe I can kind of reference that road with my line of questioning so that the attention of the county clerk is mis-directed. Sounds a little underhanded, but my intention is not outright deception. Or maybe it is. :eek:

My guess is that the county has all legal rights (easement?) to the former road property. The religious order will pay for any improvements to the road.

Thanks for your replies
 
Paul, good move.
I have to respectfully, but firmly, disagree with Tim. Real estate matters are seldom simple. I sold real estate for a number of years. And, like most of us here, bought and sold for myself several times.
I have seen some real messes, with mistakes, including some that were not caught by the attorneys or title insurance companies. A lot of mistakes were caused by incompetent surveyors.
I once almost lost my house when I tried to sell. It turned out that a widow who owned it before me (a couple 'owners' back) may not have been a widow at all and her husband might have still been alive and never signed off on the deed. This had been through, at least, a half dozen lawyers and three title insurance companies.
Real estate simple? No way, no how.
Good advice for a young person: become a lawyer and specialize in real estate law. You will stay busy and make a lot of money.
 
Franks right, anyone that has worked in Real Estate (I still do) knows that Real Estate law is not simple nor easy. Plus your local or State laws are not the same as mine. The only easy thing about it is getting bad advice. It is not a do it yourself proposition.

Good luck with helping them out. Nothing wrong with that, but I stick by what I said. If they are serious, they need someone that knows, not thinks he knows.
 
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