Dust collector debate, questions

Rob Keeble

Member
Messages
12,633
Location
GTA Ontario Canada
So my saga with my shop continues. I need to retain a little of my sanity so I thought a bit of discussion here would help. Not looking for sympathy just want my sanity back so your opinion or experiences count. This is one crazy world when you try to do the right thing and come unstuck.

Background.
I have a dust collector 3HP which i bought and have not as yet hooked up. Luckily or i might not be a hobby woodworker it seems.

It appears the local code is structured such that should you have a dust collector in excess of 1000cfm then it falls foul of all sorts of additional code requirements if it is stored indoors and not in a separate building to the working environment. Regardless of whether it was designed for this purpose. Putting it outside falls foul of the ministry of environment and so we aint going there.

So here are my questions/thoughts/understandings after all that i have read before buying this unit. I don't want to get into which unit it is cause that just brings the whole debate about which one is better etc.

I am more interested in discussing here the understandings you have, yeah i know Bill Pentz site and have read that and others but there are times when info overload takes place and my pea brain is getting somewhat shriveled lately besides i value the opinions of the down to earth common sense practical and honest people here.

Ok so my primary outlook for buying a dust collector was not to avoid picking up chips or sweeping the shop but to operate in as clean air as possible an environment.

My understanding was that after hook up to several machines etc one would have a increased static pressure caused by pipe bends and reduction etc and therefore the effective volume of air being moved measures in cubic feet per minute or CFM would be substantially reduced. Thus if one starts with a unit that has a CFM of say 1700 at 2 inches of static pressure you might end up
no more than 400 cfm if one inserts piping and bends to the point where you have 12 inches of static pressure. 400cfm being the minimum required for effective dust collection from our worst case hobby machine.

Furthermore i came to understand that if we were not able to move sufficient volume of air there was the chance of dust being left in the ducts thereby clogging the ducts and causing possible hazard.

The above would surely drive you to buy the largest you were prepared to buy based on your machines and need. Hey i also hoped or dreamed that maybe just maybe one day in the distant future one of my sons would venture to dabble in the shop with their old man. Unlikely but dreamed and if so wanted the dust collection unit not to struggle when two blast gates were open simultaneously.

In addition with the emphasis being on safety and air quality we have all become acutely aware that the filter is critical if the system is not vented outside. We also know that filter area needs to be matched to the volume of air being moved or we will merely move the blocking from the ducts to the filter and find ourselves cleaning out the filter more frequently and in effect it would be ineffective or inefficient. Added to that we understand that the tighter the filter is in terms of filtering particles the more surface area there is going to be to allow the same air volume movement

We also have within our code the ruling that dust collector systems shall be design to have a minimum velocity of 3503 feet per second in the ducts.

So if one examines the small units under 1000 cfm which can be placed in doors then you are not meeting the minimum velocity in the duct. This seems set up to prevent a guy like me from having a dust collector period.

Now if i dispose of my unit and have no dust collector and kill myself through excess dust exposure i am still foul of the law for having dust in the air which could potentially cause a dust explosion. Again working to do away with me having a shop.

So i would like to ask

Whats your take and understanding of the points i have raised.

Am i out to lunch/incorrect with any thing i have stated and if so please set me straight.

Do you have a dust collector? If so what HP just want to get a feel for who has and what size you guys have even if you built it yourself.
Have you had it inspected by your local fire marshal/ discuss it with him or read your local code? What was your experience getting this approved. You can pm me if you dont want to be public.
Whats your take on the understanding of what we need to have a healthy environment and explosion free as far as dust collection is concerned.

Hey i have an air scrubber as well.

Anyone by chance installed explosion preventing vent to the outside and care to share with me what they did to achieve this?

Thanks in advance for any replies my main aim is to hear your view and approach to this topic.
 
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Well don't that just bite. My post disappeared. Mine is a 5 hp home built cyclone that I upgraded from a 1 hp bag unit. My take is that the more cfm available at the machine your using the better. I can tell the difference in air quality when I'm to lazy to turn it on for just one or two quick cuts. Might not seem like much but when you wake up in the morning stuffed up and your eyes are crusty along with your nose you start not being so lazy and just run the thing.
 
Enclose the DC in a closet inside your shop. That separates it from the work environment, provides the possibility of additional filtering and makes the system quieter.
 
Rob:

It SOUNDS as if the Code folks have you boxed into a corner.

I'd like to think that if you reached out to your local code officials and partnered with them on coming up with a legal and workable solution it would be the best. They might be willing and able to help you interpret the requirements (as Bill gave a possible solution also) that drop some of the roadblocks.

Given your NN issues, slipping it in unannounced (so to speak) isn't a good idea.

Are you sure those requirements are not for commercial establishments? They sound too organized and formal for residential applications.

Good luck

Jim
 
Thanks guys but you gotta understand the aim here aint co existence on one side of the equation. I am getting treated like i was a business cause of the guy on the other side of the fence and whos driving the case.

The unit is already in my shop and planned for its own closet in the corner. I only wish i did enough woodworking to get to the point of being able to generate enough dust for a problem:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Man right now i wish i had never moved out of the basement.
 
What has changed to make them think your a business? Talk to the inspectors to see if you can find out what has changed or the basis for you being declared a business.
 
I guess I missed something in your initial post. Is this because the NN complained to the town or are you trying to cover your bases. If it's the later then I would suggest you call the planning department and talk to them. The regs may not even apply to a hobbiest shop. If' it's because of further action from NN I have a .44 mag, I can loan you..:D:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Geez, talk about things aligned against you Ron. Sorry you have to deal with this. I agree with Jim as well. Have the code spelled out for you in simple terms and who it applies to.

Best of luck!
 
You are getting hosed, this is bull feathers Rob, all them codes only apply to a business, you are NOT a business, the codes do not apply to you.

If I'm a hobbyist I can and will buy professional grade equipment when and if I want to. If I bought a full on 5hp Felder combo machine or something even bigger that usually only saw the interior of a factory, I would not have to suddenly meet all the Workers Comp codes for my "Workplace" as it is just a hobby.

This smells really bad, you are getting handed a load of really smelly stuff here.

If I were you I would demand to see the code written down, then I'm demand to have it explained to you where it says a hobbyist cannot buy a professional grade tool for his hobby? What, do you live in Iran, North Korea? Something is very wrong with this situation, I'd get hold of the media and start screaming harassment, play up the fact that you are an immigrant to Canada and you are being harassed and put upon by the government, have some reporter over for coffee and donuts and explain the situation to them, have them log on here and read all of your trials and tribulations.

Something is very wrong here, you are getting screwed, and if you let them screw you, then you deserve it, so don't, I'd say it is really time to start pushing back, hard, get a lawyer. :wave:
 
You're being harassed, IMHO. Time to start playing hardball (also IMHO). The NN has somehow made the authorities think you're a business. You've repeatedly proved that you're not. If that's not the end of story, period, full stop, then it's time to go on the offensive. Either the NN or the local authorities (or both) need to be put back in their proper places.

Here's a little motivation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsmybQKpmTw
 
maybe I should stop putting my noisy dust collector under my miserable neighbors kitchen window. And then maybe I should stop punching holes in the bag when its getting full and its under their window.
 
Maybe I read your post wrong. It sounds to me that no one is busting your chops right now about the DC. You are just trying to make you shop the safest you can. If this is the case I would think that having the DC unit you have plus the air scrubber will take care of your air quality.
Didn't the Fire Marshall and town officials already approve your shop?? If this is the case than I think that you are over thinking things way too much. Just go out there and make some dust :)
Nothing that I know of will take 100% of the dust out of a busy shop. Go check out a couple of local cabinet shops or furniture shops in your area and see how much dust their units leave.

Besides, it seems that you are trying to comply with a code that doesn't even apply to you. You are not a business, you are just a guy with a hobby who has woodworking tools. Contacting any official about your DC at this point after the hell you have been through will just open a can of worms. If I read your post right just forget it and go cut some wood. If I misread your post than like the others said you are getting shafted and need a lawyer.
 
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Maybe I read your post wrong. It sounds to me that no one is busting your chops right now about the DC. You are just trying to make you shop the safest you can...

That was my take on it, too.

Has somebody from Code Enforcement actually told you not to install it?

BTW, If it's an inside install, then NN probably won't even be aware of it, so there shouldn't be any complaints from him on that front, either.

Unless you've been officially notified that it's not allowed, I'd go ahead and install it, and not make a big deal of it. It's often easier to be forgiven than it is to get permission... :D
 
Thanks guys for the responses and show of support. I know i am being harassed. At this stage like Bob says i am in no mans land.

Please try understand my request here.

Provided i aint perceived to be out in the shop more than twice per week, then i aint perceived to be doing much woodworking. (Yeah all subjective). Lets not get into that.

I really just want someone who has a reasonable grasp of the dust collection topic to give me a heads up as to whether i have the correct understanding of what i am reading. This aint no joke to me as you can tell, its going to get very serious but thats for later.

I want to affirm my approach for my own sanity and then to be able to use what i know to be true to go on the offensive. I apologize if this sounds corny but thats where i am at.

See the implication is that I bought a huge dust collector. Hey i think its small .
Therefore my intention had to have been to use it for business. (thats whats being assumed.) When all along I bought it as a result of marketing and my understanding of the mistruths propagated by the dust collector sales companies in regards to their claimed performance.

Therefore in order to ensure to the best of my abilities (both knowledge wise and financial wise) that i had sufficient air movement and filter quality i went for increased fan power and consequently size.

It has always been my intention to avoid the PVC duct issue and use metal just so the whole debate dont arise and i can ground the duct.

I have also found and lost (webpage) a device that will deal with a smoldering fire in your dust bin. Again for this reason i chose a metal 55 gallon drum. This would automatically detect and extinguish a potential hazard of this kind.

At the end of the day I know the codes theoretically dont apply to me. But the fire inspector has the right regardless of code to enter any building and pass judgement on its compliance and hazard factor.

They aint saying i cant have a dust collector, they saying with such a large one they perceive this to be headed to the dealing with large volumes of dust and therefore falling foul of the codes. When in essence my motivation was to move sufficient air (based on what i had read and understood) for all the safety reasons and the biggest one being my health.

Once i know i am on the right track i can adequately defend myself with the aid of the legal council.

You see it is my opinion that they are so focused on a single aspect they cannot see the other aspect such as the health and safety side.

I would like to demonstrate that i have attended to their cause by dealing with both issues rather than just one. Bear in mind i aint dealing with scientists. They use the code as their reference point and the code has been written to be universal and black and white for specific applications. Health and safety are different to fire and building codes whilst they should be one and the same you know the gov. no matter which country you live in.

So without being a pain in the neck can you or will explain your philosophy with regards to your dust collection. Those of you who expel outside i envy your ability to do it.

Just for the record in going through the codes and boy i have read quiet a bit, it is a genuine and real requirement that the blade of your fan be non sparking.

FWW for the money i put into getting this dust collector to my shop i could have had one heck of a set of tools/machines. My feeling was and still is, whats the point of having them if the dust slowly kills you before you get to live long enough to enjoy them and by the way i was on a buy America or Canadian campaign which requires one to put your money where your mouth is in both cases. We gonna and are paying big time for our cheap imports.

I still believe in this.

Charity starts at home and in the army i learnt you look after your own first. I know that aint popular sentiment nowadays but hey i am rapidly becoming a relic of by gone years just as John Wayne and Pasquinell.:rofl::rofl:

So can i ask once again that you comment on whether i have the approach right or wrong. :wave::)
 
Rob, I understand I think where it is you are coming from. You want to stay on the correct side of the line drawn in the sand by your NN, also, you want to live a long, prosperous, healthy life! So, I agree with all written by all so far. What do I think I would do?

1. Get in touch with a personal injury lawyer. - if you do not install your DC you will be personally injured.

2. Follow the lawyer's advice while he is representing you.

3. Contact the local paper, local interest editor, show them all the problems incurred, people/inspector visits to date, future planned problems. (this might spur a lawyer to contact you to take your case!)

4. I do not know anything about Canadian government, but here in the US, I would contact my local Commissioner and lay out the problem and my aggravation and possible lawsuit against them. (Lawyers take these types of suits for a percentage of collection many times).

5. Document all posts by address here with our responses showing your willingness to be compliant.

6. Contact Bill Pentz directly, he has had health issues that created his desire for his dedication to DC. He will have documentation, he has had lawyer(s) and doctors and will most likely have valuable data showing the direct negative health issues you are trying to prevent. If he shares this with you, it will also show a lawyer more ammunition for your side and your professional attitude towards this whole nonsense.

7. Time to be proactive. You are not a rat, you do not have to wait to be cornered to bite. Like any animal in the wrong, accept punishment, but when it becomes a beating, stand up for yourself and your health/rights.

8. I have never wished to be a lawyer, but if I were, I wish I could take you as a client and clean this no good, bothersome, lower than a snake's belly type of human being's clock/pocket book.

9. Good luck my friend, GO GET 'EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well here it goes. Yes I think you are going about it the right way. For one you will be saving money by the fact you won't have to upgrade later. Once and done. Second I think it will make a more comfortable working environment for you. It's no fun waking up in the middle of the night having trouble breathing because of poor dust collection. Yes you could wear a respirator but thats not very enjoyable either and the point of the hobby is to be able to relax and do something we love.

WhenI finally did mine I had looked around and researched but just couldn't afford to buy one. Thats what influenced my decision to make my own.( Stu was also an influence on that decision) For me its much more of a pleasure to go out and work and not have to drag a dust collector around to the tools and still having a big mess to cleanup after.
 
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