What would our forefathers say?

Rob Keeble

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GTA Ontario Canada
I just recieved an email from Popular woodworking, advertising Woodpeckers precision rules and stops.

Precision that makes me wonder aloud.:huh:

As much as i love tools and am a tool junkie i could not help but think of being reminded of how wood moves. Just the other day Drew posted in the spinny section the images of movement on his bowl.

Seems to me the tool manufacturing industry would like to get us to think like a bunch of metal machinists with precision approaching that used in the manufacture of militrary hardware when we make up a set of draws or some other project for our hobby.

Dont you think our woodworking forefathers would think of us as sissys given our digital this gauge and fine precision rulers and precision adjustable router tables when they worked with their hands, head and relied on their skill to do woodworking.

Whats the point of measuring to such precision when one is going to have to make allowance for the movement anyhow. Are we not starting to go a little overboard.

Great woodworkers like Sam Maloof surely did not produce works of art with a digital gauge or precision rule finely etched in anodized aluminum.

Are we loosing it ?????:(
 
Woodworking does not demand the precision as metal, especially for the high tech stuff we see today.
But even 'back then' some amazing results were achieved without the precision tools available today. I have seen guns, and other items, made with mind boggling precision. It was done by eye and the use of shadows with tight strings, cross light and simple feel.
For woodworking, the use of wood for measuring goes back a long time as well. And, not all woods move equally. And movement along the grain is near non-existent with some woods. Popular woods for measuring instruments are boxwood, lemonwood, Osage Orange and, I'm sure the Rosewoods were used. Ole Noah used his hands and arms.
You do make a good point though.
Here's a couple wood measuring devices. One is an antique, the other nearly so. I think they are Boxwood.
 

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Oh don't get me started. Well you did. I love how some people post on some boards about .0001's Why in the world are you chasing numbers you can't ever get with wood? Here today, gone tomorrow. Look at all the antiques that are still around, been moved across the seas in some case. Still solid and still going strong. I just don't understand all the hoopla.
 
I built a project for a client and he would E-mail me mesurements in Thousandth of an inch measurements, Wood changes according to the weatherman's predictions, more than that. Finally after almost 6 months of bickering he surcomed to 1/16" tolerances but lately he has graduated to 1/32th of an inch and 1/64ths . I can do that... but still the weather challenges the measurements, had to invest in a Digital Vernier Caliber that converts fractions and decimals.
 
Seems to me the tool manufacturing industry would like to get us to think like a bunch of metal machinists with precision approaching that used in the manufacture of militrary hardware....


I AM SO HAPPY TO HEAR SOMEONE ELSE SAY THAT! I have about given up saying anything.

I think one of the big issues is that woodworker have absolutely no clue just what kind of precision they are talking about. Most are really ignorant on the subject. And before anyone says anything, Ignorance is the lack of Knowledge. Stupid or stupidity is a totally different word! Coming from a machine shop background I actually do understand. Most woodworkers don't have the tools or knowledge to measure a that their fence is parallel to the blade withing .001" but you regularly see them claiming they set it that tight. They can not measure that closely! They think they can but they can't. The fence is not that flat to start with.

We designed most fixtures. jigs, machines, ect with tolerances of +/- .010" or a .020 range on not critical parts. Mating items like screw holes were +/- .005" Dowel pins where you were lining up two parts that had to mate precisely were held to +/- .0005".

If I had specified that something 24" long had to be parallel with another piece within .001 over the length I would have had to have one EXTREMELY good reason because that is going to cost dearly.

When I see people saying they have their fence parallel within .001 I have to laugh. Unless they were a machinist I serious doubt they know how measure that close and I would be willing to bet that the face on the fence is no where near flat to within .001 so they can't possibly measure to that accuracy off the fence to start with.
 
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I do all my woodturning to the thousandth of an inch. Now exactly which thousandth, I couldn't tell you, but it's one of them for sure. :D

My tablesaw fence is an Incra, so it's real easy for me to make repeatable measured cuts in 1/32" increments. I do sometimes try for closer tolerances than that if I need parts to match, but if I do, I'm not measuring the differences, I'm using a previously-cut piece as a set-up aid instead. It seems that anything less than about 1/32", I can feel with my fingers better than see with my eyes.

I do see value in having instruments that can measure to 0.001" (or a reasonable estimation) in the woodshop, but primarily for setting up and tuning machines, not for measuring wood.
 
Here's a couple wood measuring devices. One is an antique, the other nearly so. I think they are Boxwood.

Frank that rule is a keeper. I missed getting my Dads version of that rule. In fact i think as a youngster i (or rather him cause everything was my fault) broke his. But the increments on that rule were perfect for woodworking.:thumb:

Oh don't get me started. Well you did. I love how some people post on some boards about .0001's Why in the world are you chasing numbers you can't ever get with wood? Here today, gone tomorrow. Look at all the antiques that are still around, been moved across the seas in some case. Still solid and still going strong. I just don't understand all the hoopla.

I built a project for a client and he would E-mail me mesurements in Thousandth of an inch measurements, Wood changes according to the weatherman's predictions, more than that. Finally after almost 6 months of bickering he surcomed to 1/16" tolerances but lately he has graduated to 1/32th of an inch and 1/64ths . I can do that... but still the weather challenges the measurements, had to invest in a Digital Vernier Caliber that converts fractions and decimals.

Steve and Bill in my view speaking as an Engineer that was probably the last of a generation to get taught or mentored by guys with real first principle understanding of engineering, I think the issue stems from way to little practicle work for budding new engineers.

I remember a project i managed where we flew very capable engineers to Singapore with the executive order to put them on the production where they were to do their design in order to be able to have it produced at this particular companys plant.

Well the young engineers would specify components just for safety sake. Not taking cost or availability into account. Simply because they did not know or have a feel for how the component they had selected would work out or stand up in the field. It was the procurement manager at this plant that would put them on the spot when i was putting the squeeze on him about cost. When he asked the hard questions they buckled and confessed. The same applied to loads of things these guys would spec. It did not matter if it was mechanical, electrical or cosmetic.

Just because the cad system allowed them to draw it absolute, they would want the measurement that way without regard for what it takes to achieve it.

Imho now these guys are designing our tools.

I do think there are huge merits in the digital displays on measuring tools especially for the grey haired guys like me to be able to see the digits rather than having to use glasses all the time, but the precision aspect well thats something else. Its not as if we are into producing huge numbers of the same thing in our shop and even then things like stops or spacer blocks will provide the repeatablity or what about the good old template.

Carol if you see this post, you wanna think about a section on this point for newbie woodworkers on a budget. Before they get caught up like I would admit i have in certain areas, some good practical advice on tools and what to avoid buying yet still be able to make good woodworking projects with the starter set.

If we aint careful the perfectionist super precision plague kills new entrys cause they could percieve that they cannot sharpen a plane unless they have Shapton stones yet we all know that aint true. Or they have to have a Lie Neilson plane or they cannot do neader flatwork again, they could make a wooden plane and have a real good plane and a lot of fun in the process. Cannot make a project cause i only got pine. Whats wrong with pine, i love the stuff.:D
 
Rob, this was on my mind when I ask my shop size question. Lots of folks feel they must have the biggest and best of everything. Now I understand more room is better, but look at the pieces that have been turned out of small underequipped shops.

As with any thing, when it stops being fun and turns to work, it gets old.
 
I just retired last month after 30+ years as a Tool & Die Maker. I had to work tolerances of less than .001 inch. Now that I can enjoy my woodworking full time, 1/32" seems huge. A pleasant change that I adjusted to easily. I have all of the precision measuring tools but only use calipers for checking thickness of boards when planing, just easier. You just need to be realistic about wood and accept the fact that it's going to change.

I had a problem with a former "Quality Assurance Technician" who would check my tooling work with an old beat up Stanley tape measure and tell me how many thousandths of an inch it was off. :huh: I always told him that when I retired...I was gonna throw that tape as far as I could. :eek: Wouldn't ya know...the company ran him off before I got the chance.:D:thumb:
 
Well I have to agree with you Rob. I don't own a precision ruler. The closest thing I have to precision is my new digital fence. I have that not to measure to the thousand but it's easier for me to remember measurements if I see them like they are written. I'm also about to do alot of repetative evenly spaced cuts for the accesories for the kitchen build and this will make it easier since I can zero it out, move it the amount I want and continue without having to think about it.

I own dial indicators, micrometers and calipers but have never used them for wood working. When I replace the blades on my jointer I just use the metal rule from my combo square. When I checked blade alignment on the tablesaw it was with the combo square and the fence I aligned with the miter slot using a razor blade.
 
Here's a couple wood measuring devices. One is an antique, the other nearly so. I think they are Boxwood.

Only time my grandfather ever threatened to spank me was over a ruler like that...only I think his was one of those folding rulers that extends out to about 8 feet.. I was playing with his (when I wasn't supposed to) and broke it... :D:D
 
I think they'd probably say use a story stick and make sure that if you make more than one of anything, make sure it's the same size as the others and not worry about the measurements... :D
 
...Seems to me the tool manufacturing industry would like to get us to think like a bunch of metal machinists with precision approaching that used in the manufacture of militrary hardware when we make up a set of draws or some other project for our hobby. ....Are we loosing it ?????:(

I'm glad someone else brought this up before I did. When I was a kid, they taught us that the primary purpose newspapers was to selll newspapers. Now its the same with woodworking magazines. Between the magazines and tool retailers, they have beginners thinging that they need all of this stuff. So mas a result, they want to keep yoiu at an amateur level forever so you continue to buy their magazines and also keep their advertisers happy by pushing their products. So as a result, mamy beginners have been buying and building jigs for 3 years and not made one piece of furniture yet because the magazines have them convinced that woodworking is difficult and they need more reading and more tools and jigs.
I have seen several new shops that look like they belong to NASA and when asked "what have you made so far?" all you see are jigs because the person doesnt think he is ready yet.
Furniture is nothing but a series of boxes within a box. How much easier can it get?
There are many facets of woodworking and the newest are collecting tools and magazines and making jigs.
If you want to learn woodworking, find some old books in the library and just build something.
 
I think you nailed it Tony. That's me to to T. Got the tools, got the shop, have made a few things, but spend more time not doing the things I want, than actually making nice things...
 
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