Whats the difference

Rob Keeble

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GTA Ontario Canada
Toni posted recently on the acquisition of a router and lift for a shop table router system. When i saw the Polar line and saw this unit

http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper-Polar-Bear-Series/G1035P

I could not help but think that surely this is the way to go given the price of the unit.

So whats the difference between a dedicated shaper versus a dedicated router table with lift and decent table.

I aint ever seen one of these or worked on one so i am asking?

Other than motor size.
 
You basically have your answer. Shapers run slower and use larger cutters. Some folks use collets to allow router bits on shapers but success would be fairly specific to the bit, speed and operator.

For the enthusiast or those doing production runs in the home shop, a shaper would seem like the way to go. The better ones tilt and reverse which is cool. For me, the RT is a good fit; low cost for cutters (a low end ogee RP router bit from MLCS = $25 vs. a low end ogee RP shaper cutter from MLCS = $72; not that I recommend low end cutters, just an example), lots of profiles, lots of after-market stuff.

I got my router, lift and table top all on sale (at different times) and have less cash in them than one would spend today. I know that a lot of home shop folks really love their shapers and I don't have one so my input is very limited and subject to what I have experience with. If my lift would tilt like the higher end shaper spindles do I could be in heaven.
 
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Toni posted recently on the acquisition of a router and lift for a shop table router system. When i saw the Polar line and saw this unit

http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper-Polar-Bear-Series/G1035P

I could not help but think that surely this is the way to go given the price of the unit.

So whats the difference between a dedicated shaper versus a dedicated router table with lift and decent table.

I aint ever seen one of these or worked on one so i am asking?

Other than motor size.

Rob
I have never had more than $200.00 in any router and table combination I have ever used. Many of the newer routers can be adjusted from a access hole on the base. I can't imagine spending the money on a table/lift or a shaper that many do unless it is production or semi production. You can do everything with a router mounted on a board and held in a workmate you can do with the fancy stuff. It just takes a little more time. The best setup I ever had was a router mounted in a table saw wing that I used for years...

I have never spent the time to do this on my new saw and use the board mounted in the workmate...

This isn't to criticize those that do as we all spend our money as we want, but I have found the simple router setups very satisfactory. I did have a couple of the early cheap sears metal tables and found them near useless. The board in the workmate is very good.

Garry
 
I agree with Gary, that these expensive lifts and such are not needed. I have a router mounted in the wing of my table saw and have the router on a blue plate that I think I paid around $20 for.to change bits and set the heright I just lift the router out of the table. It doesn't take any time. I like the fact that it takes up zero floor space since the table saw is already doing that and the table saw fence come in real handy also. I have used the lifts in other shops but find them no easier to use then my setup. $20 a piece of scrap melamine and a dedicated router. that my whole cost.
 
+1 for what Gary and Don said.
I will add that if one is doing production stuff the shaper is the way to go.
Router tables and lifts are just small shapers that fit under tables instead of taking up floor space.
Kinda like using a shovel (router and table) to dig a foundation hole instead of an excavator (shaper):thumb:
 
I like Chuck's analogy.

The way I see it - is if you are going to spend the money for a heavy duty router and lift, then spending nearly the same amount on a shaper makes sense.

You can do the lighter router bit work on the shaper, and you can do the heavier work with the larger router bits (raised panel) on the shaper, and you can go beyond the router work into the shaper bits and such. So you have a wider range of options with the shaper than you do with the router table approach. You cannot use shaper bits in a router (that I know of) Not having to pull the router out of the table, or fiddle around with settings while mounted in the table is also a plus. I am sure it can be done, and many are successful - lots of woodworkers have router tables. Light, multiple passes may be required.

If you only need a light duty router for the work you plan to do - and maybe occasional heavy work, then the shaper is overkill and over priced. A heavy duty router and lift would also be overkill. You can get by with a lighter router and a board with a hole in it.:thumb:

I plan to go with a shaper myself. I have a light duty router for the non-table routing chores, and like the idea of using the shaper for raised panel doors, and other things easier done with a shaper - with less fuss and bother. I have run raised panel doors on router tables and put quite a strain on the router (and myself) - even taking multiple passes. Not a big problem if they are rare occurrences, but one pass on the shaper would have gotten the job done quicker and safer.

There is also something about the sound of a shaper spinning up with a monster bit - and the wind in your face...:eek:;)
 
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Toni posted recently on the acquisition of a router and lift for a shop table router system. When i saw the Polar line and saw this unit

http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper-Polar-Bear-Series/G1035P

I could not help but think that surely this is the way to go given the price of the unit.

So whats the difference between a dedicated shaper versus a dedicated router table with lift and decent table.

I aint ever seen one of these or worked on one so i am asking?

Other than motor size.

Rob we have 2 of those exact same shapers at work we use one for stiles and one for cope cuts. They are alright and you can bog them down. If you have the space a shaper would be the way to go.

Don I have to disagree with you. I can see a night and day difference between a router lift and just a router mounted to an aluminum plate. I won't go back and it will be a cold day you know where before I ever give my router lift up. Adjustments are so much easier, precise and quicker. And yes I have also tried the routers with built in above table adjustment.

If I had the room I still don't think I would get a shaper just due to the investment I already have in bits for my router. But you never know and loml could surprise me one day!:rolleyes:
 
Alan,
I'm not saying that there not nice to have, just not needed. I feel that there OK if ya got unlimited funds but I'd rather spend my $$$$ on bits and other tools. In terms of preccesion this is woodworking how accurate to you have to be, the wood gonna move anyhow.
 
Thank you all for the input. After posting i did some more research.

Like Don has said i have a cheap router table home made with the lee valley bakalite insert that i sunk in a piece of BB. For me right now that and a 890 PC router is ok. I dont have a meaningfull investment in router bits either.

But I now tend to agree with Rick after looking further.

Take a guy paying for a Milwaukee router 3.5hp plus shipping etc.

Then add a purchased table top along with one of the fancy lifts like Woodpecker or what have you and add the shipping.

By the time you finished you could be in for over $1000. I saw a table and lift that equaled that without the router today the woodpecker vesion.

Now consider the purchase of a Grizz 3Hp shaper for $1000 including shipping in the USA. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1026

I think if i had to choose between this versus a table and lift and seperate router i would go with the shaper when i look at the blades and bits available.

Just look at spindle travel, reversable motor, ground cast iron table that aint gonna sag:D and much more and 220v.

Now you take Toni who is looking to invest in a router kit, I blame him for starting me down this road;):D:wave:, when he is done ordering all the components and buying raw material to make himself a dedicated router table given his skills what he could do with the cutters that are available for a shaper i think its more beneficial for him to go the shaper route.:dunno:

What would you say.
 
But what if Toni's only need is to put a 1/4" round over on a 3 " square? :rofl::rofl::rofl:
I know I'm not doing that on a 3hp shaper:thumb::rofl::rofl::rofl:
That is the time you need the shovel not the excavator:thumb::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
and don't forget that shaper bits are waaaay more expensive than router bits, so you can use the cheaper router bits in the shaper up to a point, but if you move up into the bigger shaper bits, bigger money gets involved.
 
...What would you say.

I think in Toni's case the router table makes more sense. As Chuck pointed out, shapers aren't great for small parts, and I suspect Toni will, on average, be doing more small parts than big parts. (And he can still do the big parts on the router table, maybe just not as quickly or easily.)

A shaper is great in a production environment where you're running hundreds or thousands of feet of wood through the machine (that's when a power feeder is your friend), but a router table can handle the vast majority of what gets built in a home workshop.

I went low to middle cost on my router table. It's a Rockler tablesaw extension wing with a Woodpeckers phenolic plate, and a Router Raizer holding a Hitachi M12V. Probably spent about $300 on the whole setup. I slide the Incra fence down from the right side of the tablesaw to the left side, and use it on the router table. It's a notch or two up from a router on a piece of plywood, but not nearly the same level of setup as a lot of guys have.
 
Ooooo I am loving it. The debate here. Not many defending the poor old shaper Eh?

But I will give it another try.

Ok we have comments as to the cost of shaper "bits" but take a look at this page on Grizz and tell me what you think

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/481 and the page before it

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/480

(gosh there are times when i think Grizz should be subsidizing our forum for all this free exposure)

Looks to me like the variety and size of this range and amortized cost of the net cutter beats router bits and their life and use.

But also could i not create my own profile on a grinder easier than it would be using router bits.


Here is another point, what if i were a designer set on making large period furniture pieces in European flavor whith lots of mouldings and fancy carvings. Could i not get a complex wide large moulding by large i mean in overall height (rather than the small size you refer to Chuck) in a few quick passes as opposed to having to do multiple bits on a router and "build up" my design.

Hey I am just trying to be devils advocate here and trying to think outside the box.


Guess i am tredding water here....:rofl::rofl::rofl: my ship is sinking fast.:D
 
I have a friend that has a shaper that I occasionally use. I think that it's the only power tool that I have ever used that makes me nervous. The bits look like the size of razor edged dinner plates spinning around. :eek::eek: KInd of reminds me of Stephen Kings "The Mangler" :rofl:

A real fancy one would be kind of cool but for what I need it for I'll stick to my PC router table and router. Cost me under $250.00 and does everything I ask of it.
 
I have a friend that has a shaper that I occasionally use. I think that it's the only power tool that I have ever used that makes me nervous. The bits look like the size of razor edged dinner plates spinning around. :eek::eek: KInd of reminds me of Stephen Kings "The Mangler" :rofl:

A real fancy one would be kind of cool but for what I need it for I'll stick to my PC router table and router. Cost me under $250.00 and does everything I ask of it.

Seeing Tod's shaper and bits is an awe inspiring experience. Takes two hands just to hold one of the bits.
 
my big shaper

For the record, here is my 'big' shaper. ;)
It's a Grizzly G8693, it about one foot square. I store on a shelf when not in use. It is surprisingly very handy, especially for the limited amount of flat work I do. Cost $99.00 at the time I purchased.
It came with adapters for 1/2" shaft shaper cutters. I have never used those but believe they would work fine for certain jobs.
Please wait until I log out before you start laughing.
 

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