kitchen plan

Ned Bulken

Member
Messages
5,529
Location
Lakeport NY and/or the nearest hotel
Well,
the LOML and I trundled off to Lowes tonight, and I let the design gal help Lori with coming up with a new floorplan for our kitchen. see attached (I'm on the laptop, no sketchup allowed, so Paint is the best I could do).
attachment.php

We're going to get other quotes, as even the basic cabinets at Lowes were $3000 or so. Without new appliances or counter tops... (we're only thinking of a new stove and adding a dishwasher, we'll re-use our current fridge.

attachment.php



On both setups, there is the island I built last summer in the center, the new plan also allows a typical kitchen table in the largish open space. I just didn't draw it or the island.

We're switching to a single sink, moving the sink to the inside wet wall, and adding the dishwasher.

Not to scale by any means.
 

Attachments

  • kitchen As is.JPG
    kitchen As is.JPG
    14.7 KB · Views: 123
  • kitchen plan.JPG
    kitchen plan.JPG
    15.6 KB · Views: 122
Don,
honestly, the kitchen as it sits is pretty well the worst part of the house, and two of my lodge brothers who are realtors suggested that we invest some money into it, or the price on the house might fetch is going to be much lower than we would like, even in this economy.

We're not going overboard, Just 'enough' to keep with the nature of the house (small, starter home). It is the largest project on our plate, along with new laminate flooring throughout the public areas, and basic carpet or other laminate in the bedrooms.

the punch list is
Kitchen
paint/trim
Flooring
 
Don,
honestly, the kitchen as it sits is pretty well the worst part of the house, and two of my lodge brothers who are realtors suggested that we invest some money into it, or the price on the house might fetch is going to be much lower than we would like, even in this economy...

Be careful what you spend there. Realtors love to talk about things like "90% return on investment" and things like that, but remember that a 90% ROA is still a 10% LOSS.

Yeah, you'll get a better price if you upgrade, but you won't get all your costs back. It might be better to do some less expensive cosmetics, and let the buyer put his/her own money into doing the major rebuilds to their own tastes.
 
Are the two attachments new options? What is the layout now?

The second attachment layout works better to me than the first, your work triangle (stove, fridge, sink) isn't perfect on either, but that one seems to have a better flow.

I have to agree with Jim though (not seeing pics of what you're working with), you may still take a loss just to make the realtors job easier.

Clean and well kept will sell just as well as new and fresh if it looks like they have very little to do.

Some suggestions:

Appliance you have that are missing parts or need new seals can be replaced very inexpensively and easily to make an appliance appear well kept (http://www.repairclinic.com is one of my favs).

Re-use any cabinetry by relocating and only buying/building new where you have to, possibly reface or paint and install new hardware.

Use fresh and inexpensive laminate counter tops to freshen the look and update colors.

Faucets are cheap to replace.

Replace older receptacles/light switches and face plates for a cleaner/updated look.

Don't personalize, use neutral colors.

Replace trim work or strip and clean up woodwork that has too many layers of paint. Caulk and paint all gaps, no matter how small, this may be picky, but makes for a much cleaner look.
 
Are the two attachments new options? What is the layout now?

The second attachment layout works better to me than the first, your work triangle (stove, fridge, sink) isn't perfect on either, but that one seems to have a better flow.

I have to agree with Jim though (not seeing pics of what you're working with), you may still take a loss just to make the realtors job easier.




Some suggestions:

Appliance you have that are missing parts or need new seals can be replaced very inexpensively and easily to make an appliance appear well kept (http://www.repairclinic.com is one of my favs).

Re-use any cabinetry by relocating and only buying/building new where you have to, possibly reface or paint and install new hardware.

Use fresh and inexpensive laminate counter tops to freshen the look and update colors.

Faucets are cheap to replace.

Replace older receptacles/light switches and face plates for a cleaner/updated look.

Don't personalize, use neutral colors.

Replace trim work or strip and clean up woodwork that has too many layers of paint. Caulk and paint all gaps, no matter how small, this may be picky, but makes for a much cleaner look.


My thoughts exactly.

Realtors are interested in making a sale the easiest way possible. No matter what they say they have their own interests at heart.

As long as everything is clean, neat, freshly painted, furniture placed so it's pleasing to the eye, and appliances are fairly modern looking and in good working condition you shouldn't have a problem selling it.

If a floor needs finishing, a rug replaced or a new stove or similar, you can offer the buyer a thousand or so dollars back at closing to take care of those issues. If your house is a starter, the type of buyer thats interested is not going to have a ton of extra cash kicking around. They will be willing to get a mortgage closer to the asking price in order to get unexpected cash back to fix a few things.
Clean and well kept will sell just as well as new and fresh if it looks like they have very little to do.
 
Be careful what you spend there. Realtors love to talk about things like "90% return on investment" and things like that, but remember that a 90% ROA is still a 10% LOSS.

Yeah, you'll get a better price if you upgrade, but you won't get all your costs back. It might be better to do some less expensive cosmetics, and let the buyer put his/her own money into doing the major rebuilds to their own tastes.

+1 on what Jim said. Unless you really, really want to do it, it might be easier to let the new owners do what they want...
 
Another thing to consider, cosmetic changes don't typically wont require permits. A large renovation that requires electrical and plumbing to be moved will, which also adds $$$s. Though you can do the work yourself, just be prepared to back up the disclosures, as they always ask if permits were pulled if it's obvious that something major has changed.

Also, Bob's advice to just give an allowance at closing is a good idea, have done that with paint and flooring on one house we sold, but I'd only suggest this when negotiating or if you're in competition with new housing where you have to be competitive with those sales.
 
Last edited:
I agree with others have said on the last 2 houses I sold (my mothers when she passed away and the house we sold before moving here) I painted the insides of the houses a very neutral soft white but did nothing else. In both instances the carpeting needed replacing. I got and estimate as to the cost of new carpeting and offered the buyer half that amount as a rebate ate the close of escrow. I told thew agent that was so the new buyer could put any color of carpeting they wanted rather then having to live with what I picked out. It actually made the hose easier to sell.
 
...Realtors are interested in making a sale the easiest way possible. No matter what they say they have their own interests at heart...

This bears repeating. Any improvement you make to the property -- regardless of its cost -- translates into more money for the real estate agent. Not only is the sale easier, but the commission is bigger. I realize these are your Lodge brothers and not out to take advantage of you, but I suspect they're conditioned into thinking this way.

Extreme example...say you spend $50K upgrading the house, but it only results in increasing the selling price by $1000. The Realtor doesn't care, since he's still getting a bigger commission than he would had you not done the upgrades. There are some relatively low-cost cosmetic expenses that are worth the money, like a fresh coat of paint or new switches and receptacles, or even flooring if the existing stuff is worn out, but I don't think I'd be installing any cabinets.
 
if you want to upgrade the kitchen and then sell the house, keep the same floor plan but just add new cabinets.

Why?

Because that way you save on having to move the plumbing, electrical and or gas.

keep it simple.

just my 1 cent contribution.

joe
 
In the interest of domestic tranquility I won't post photos (tonight) of the kitchen as is.

As for the why... the cabinets were... shall we say... inexpensive when my wife's ex put them in 18 years ago... they're in sad shape and we've put off replacing the for other considerations for quite awhile.

Thanks all... and in order...

Be careful what you spend there. Realtors love to talk about things like "90% return on investment" and things like that, but remember that a 90% ROA is still a 10% LOSS.

Yeah, you'll get a better price if you upgrade, but you won't get all your costs back. It might be better to do some less expensive cosmetics, and let the buyer put his/her own money into doing the major rebuilds to their own tastes.

Jim,
Lori is very resourceful, and has found a source much cheaper than the Big Box for the cabinets... 10% would be a cheap price to enjoy a better kitchen/ house even for a few months.

Are the two attachments new options? What is the layout now?
The top one is the current layout, the bottom is the 'proposed'.

The second attachment layout works better to me than the first, your work triangle (stove, fridge, sink) isn't perfect on either, but that one seems to have a better flow.

I have to agree with Jim though (not seeing pics of what you're working with), you may still take a loss just to make the realtors job easier.

Clean and well kept will sell just as well as new and fresh if it looks like they have very little to do.

Some suggestions:

Appliance you have that are missing parts or need new seals can be replaced very inexpensively and easily to make an appliance appear well kept (http://www.repairclinic.com is one of my favs).

Re-use any cabinetry by relocating and only buying/building new where you have to, possibly reface or paint and install new hardware.
we're at or beyond freshening and into 'must' regarding the cabinetry.

Use fresh and inexpensive laminate counter tops to freshen the look and update colors.

Stock Borg counters aye

Faucets are cheap to replace.

and will be done

Replace older receptacles/light switches and face plates for a cleaner/updated look.

Don't personalize, use neutral colors.

Replace trim work or strip and clean up woodwork that has too many layers of paint. Caulk and paint all gaps, no matter how small, this may be picky, but makes for a much cleaner look.

Lori's ex had a thing about dark stain, we're going to paint and freshen with off white etc...

I'll take all the tips and tricks I can get! We're only going to replace the range, the rest are 'young' enough (<4 years)to be servicable and won't be a problem. The range is going on 25 years old, I'll take a look at that appliance site.



My thoughts exactly.

Realtors are interested in making a sale the easiest way possible. No matter what they say they have their own interests at heart.

As long as everything is clean, neat, freshly painted, furniture placed so it's pleasing to the eye, and appliances are fairly modern looking and in good working condition you shouldn't have a problem selling it.

If a floor needs finishing, a rug replaced or a new stove or similar, you can offer the buyer a thousand or so dollars back at closing to take care of those issues. If your house is a starter, the type of buyer thats interested is not going to have a ton of extra cash kicking around. They will be willing to get a mortgage closer to the asking price in order to get unexpected cash back to fix a few things.
Clean and well kept will sell just as well as new and fresh if it looks like they have very little to do.

This is the epitome of a starter home, and needs a bit of tlc before I would be comfortable putting it on the market. Neutral pallette will be the rule as we go through and freshen everything up.

+1 on what Jim said. Unless you really, really want to do it, it might be easier to let the new owners do what they want...

I may be a glutton for punishment, but I've put off doing it for so long, I'm actually looking forward to making the house nice for the time we have left here, it Has needed work for awhile, but until this year we haven't had the money to put into it.

Another thing to consider, cosmetic changes don't typically wont require permits. A large renovation that requires electrical and plumbing to be moved will, which also adds $$$s. Though you can do the work yourself, just be prepared to back up the disclosures, as they always ask if permits were pulled if it's obvious that something major has changed.

Also, Bob's advice to just give an allowance at closing is a good idea, have done that with paint and flooring on one house we sold, but I'd only suggest this when negotiating or if you're in competition with new housing where you have to be competitive with those sales.
There is a new development going in a couple of miles away, but this is more of an established if quirky neighborhood, formerly an area where folks from the two larger cities (relative term only) nearby kept 'camps', that has evolved into a mix of that plus typical residential structures. Both of our neighbors on either side are seasonal, one brand new after a fire, the other a total gut and upgrade in progress. We split the difference between them.

This won't actually require any electrical or water to be moved, we have a wet wall on the 'left' wall, shared with the bathroom, so drains etc are existing and well within reach. The only thing we will have to have moved is the gas line for the stove, which will simply have to be extended about 8 feet to the left.



This bears repeating. Any improvement you make to the property -- regardless of its cost -- translates into more money for the real estate agent. Not only is the sale easier, but the commission is bigger. I realize these are your Lodge brothers and not out to take advantage of you, but I suspect they're conditioned into thinking this way.

Extreme example...say you spend $50K upgrading the house, but it only results in increasing the selling price by $1000. The Realtor doesn't care, since he's still getting a bigger commission than he would had you not done the upgrades. There are some relatively low-cost cosmetic expenses that are worth the money, like a fresh coat of paint or new switches and receptacles, or even flooring if the existing stuff is worn out, but I don't think I'd be installing any cabinets.

We're looking at a budget of 10 to 15K total for upgrades, no way in heck we'd sink 50K into this joint, unless we were going to be here awhile. I truly believe that we won't be able to move this place if we don't do some basic upgrades. Paint, flooring and the planned reno of the kitchen are all we're planning, but those are all Nescessary.


if you want to upgrade the kitchen and then sell the house, keep the same floor plan but just add new cabinets.

Why?

Because that way you save on having to move the plumbing, electrical and or gas.

keep it simple.

just my 1 cent contribution.

joe


Joe, see above, only one utility gets to move, and shouldn't be too hard, and we have someone capable of that job already on tap.

As for the rest of the house, we're going to have plenty of 'give' on the siding and possibly the roof when we get right down to brass tacks. Updating/freshening is simply so we can stick to our guns on some points, while making concessions for the exterior.
We're not making this any more complex than we absolutely Have to. We're not expecting to make a killing when we sell this, but in order for it to move at all, we feel we need to make it 'presentable', which it is Not in its current state. Yep it's a bit of work, but it is all stuff we're going to do ourselves as much as we can. (only trade is the plumber for the gas service).
 
I think it all "depends".

We redid our kitchen on our bay area property. Pretty cheap but the looks are 10,000% better than what we had before. I can't even imagine anyone considering our house over others if we had not changed it out (believe me, it was cheap stuff).

Since Brent and I were able to do most of the installation labor (minus the counter), it was huge thing that I think it will definitely pay itself back, perhaps even more so.

But it also comes down to a little bit of pride. If you totally hate what's there, then so will the new folks, and in today's market, I bet there are more folks looking for fairly turn-key places to live than fixers-uppers that's going to cost them a lot, especially since most are not able to do it themselves (FWIW).
 
Agree with Sharon on this one. I think remodeling a kitchen when it's in bad shape is ok if you're fixing to sell. True you don't recoup your money when you remodel to upgrade or replace good condition working appliances. But if it's in poor condition, it's worth fixing. I think for the majority of couples, one or both want a turn key house.

I always thought the 75-90% return on investment figure paying someone for all the install. If you do the install yourself it's at least break even. If the existing is in poor condition you'll likely come out ahead. Adding a dishwasher to a house without one is huge too.
 
I think it all "depends".

We redid our kitchen on our bay area property. Pretty cheap but the looks are 10,000% better than what we had before. I can't even imagine anyone considering our house over others if we had not changed it out (believe me, it was cheap stuff).

Since Brent and I were able to do most of the installation labor (minus the counter), it was huge thing that I think it will definitely pay itself back, perhaps even more so.

But it also comes down to a little bit of pride. If you totally hate what's there, then so will the new folks, and in today's market, I bet there are more folks looking for fairly turn-key places to live than fixers-uppers that's going to cost them a lot, especially since most are not able to do it themselves (FWIW).

That's pretty much where we are... we hate what's in there, and simple pride means it has to be updated. It won't be fancy in the greater scheme, no granite or travertine here... laminate and such are fine... but they're replacing failing particle board cabinets and a 30 yr old laminate counter (we only have one)


Agree with Sharon on this one. I think remodeling a kitchen when it's in bad shape is ok if you're fixing to sell. True you don't recoup your money when you remodel to upgrade or replace good condition working appliances. But if it's in poor condition, it's worth fixing. I think for the majority of couples, one or both want a turn key house.

I always thought the 75-90% return on investment figure paying someone for all the install. If you do the install yourself it's at least break even. If the existing is in poor condition you'll likely come out ahead. Adding a dishwasher to a house without one is huge too.

We're supplying the labor, we may not be contractor grade, but we'll get the job done. I just wish she'd gotten the itch earlier in the year. :rolleyes:
 
I agree with Jeb - the "return on investment" figure typically assumes labor costs. If you're able to do the work yourself (competently that is), you should be well ahead assuming you make wise material choices and don't over improve compared to the rest of the house.

I also agree that improving the "sale-ability" should not be discounted. There are homes in my neighborhood that have been in the market for years. These are decent homes that for a variety of reasons just haven't found buyers. In one particular case close to me, the price has dropped by a 1/3 and it still isn't attracting much interest. The owner was a single, elderly man who had to move out 3 or so months back to due an inability to live alone any longer. I cringe when I think about the situation he and his (adult) children are in regarding this property. Sellers need to think proactively in this kind of market.

Good luck - it sounds like you've got a reasonable plan in mind. Stick to it and make sure you complete the job in a timely manner. :thumb:
 
I think it all "depends".

We redid our kitchen on our bay area property. Pretty cheap but the looks are 10,000% better than what we had before. I can't even imagine anyone considering our house over others if we had not changed it out (believe me, it was cheap stuff).

Since Brent and I were able to do most of the installation labor (minus the counter), it was huge thing that I think it will definitely pay itself back, perhaps even more so.

But it also comes down to a little bit of pride. If you totally hate what's there, then so will the new folks, and in today's market, I bet there are more folks looking for fairly turn-key places to live than fixers-uppers that's going to cost them a lot, especially since most are not able to do it themselves (FWIW).

Yeah, That's why she gets paid the big bucks! We also had to do a couple of other things. The bathrooms were 'Carpeted':eek: Must have been the thing to do when they built it as a model home, but not a very shower or toilet friendly surface to have in a bathroom. Pulled out the carpet in those areas and put down some tile.

Some things really do have to be done...
 
I agree with Jeb - the "return on investment" figure typically assumes labor costs. If you're able to do the work yourself (competently that is), you should be well ahead assuming you make wise material choices and don't over improve compared to the rest of the house.

I also agree that improving the "sale-ability" should not be discounted. There are homes in my neighborhood that have been in the market for years. These are decent homes that for a variety of reasons just haven't found buyers. In one particular case close to me, the price has dropped by a 1/3 and it still isn't attracting much interest. The owner was a single, elderly man who had to move out 3 or so months back to due an inability to live alone any longer. I cringe when I think about the situation he and his (adult) children are in regarding this property. Sellers need to think proactively in this kind of market.

Good luck - it sounds like you've got a reasonable plan in mind. Stick to it and make sure you complete the job in a timely manner. :thumb:

The house I grew up in was/is a gorgeous early 20th century home, which had 5 beds 5 baths, 2 kitchens (single family, but the prior owner had a 'show' kitchen on the 1st floor and a 'summer' or 'work' kitchen in the basement where things got messy). It was nearly 6000sf and it took a solid 6 years to move in the mid to late 90s. My parents held out as long as they could and in the end sold it for less than half of what it might have brought. In the end, a house brings what it brings, especially in this market.

I harbor no illusions that this won't be a tough sell, the market, the area, and the condition are all against us, but we're committed to moving to VA... have a house already there, so we're motivated sellers. Now we have to bring it up to basic saleable (it isn't now, livable yes, but certainly not saleable).

Yeah, That's why she gets paid the big bucks! We also had to do a couple of other things. The bathrooms were 'Carpeted':eek: Must have been the thing to do when they built it as a model home, but not a very shower or toilet friendly surface to have in a bathroom. Pulled out the carpet in those areas and put down some tile.

Some things really do have to be done...


Carpet in a Bathroom??? Really?!?!
 
Yeah, even my last house built in 2002 the builder was going to put carpet in the baths unless you paid for the price difference/upgrades. I told him to keep the house...so he backed off and determined that linoleum was the same cost to install as carpet and gave it to us.
 
Top