New Shop

Jeb Taylor

Member
Messages
518
Location
Decatur, Alabama
Well, after planning this for a year my shop is finally fixing to happen. It started with I didn't want to build a shop at a house that my wife and I wouldn't stay at for at least 10 years. Since January we've listed/sold our house, moved, found out we couldn't build the shop where we wanted, applied for and got a zoning variance, and now getting quotes for the shop. I even got a picture of the stakes in the ground :)

The shop's going to be 22' x 26' and I'm going to install a 3hp cyclone and duct work to get it started. Since I'm out of work right now, doing some digging on ductwork and the DC. Looking at the grizzly and oneida, not sure if there's some other good 3hp cyclone models to look at?

Also ducting, i can't afford the fancy ducting like grizzly/woodcraft sells. The snaplock furnace ducting at Home Depot looks very affordable. Are there any downsides to that versus PVC, or any better suppliers for furnace ducting/PVC? I'm looking at about 28' of ducting, 2 Y's, 3 90's in at least 6" ducting, with blast gates and 4" reducers with around a $500 max budget. I'd like to squeeze 3 more Y's and gates in too so I don't have to unhook hoses, but they can come later if they don't meet the budget.
 

Attachments

  • RE_0002.jpg
    RE_0002.jpg
    117.1 KB · Views: 246
I'll post pictures as they come in. I hope to get construction started mid December. That way it'll be ready around the time my hand recovers enough to move in!
 
if yu were closer i got some of the high dollar ducting yu could have:) but i am not headed to alabama any time soon:) i used pvc with no trouble, but the home depot stuff in 22gauge is fine for a hobby setup.. also take a look at clearvue cyclones,, good company..
 
I'm leaning towards the 3hp cyclone from grizzly. After looking at the clearvue, grizzly, oneida, etc the motor amp draw for the 3hp grizzley is 22 amps, and the 5hp is 22.4 amps. Most 3hp motors draw more like 15 amps and 5hp motors run 22-30 amps. Does that mean they put an oversize motor on it, maybe for commonality of parts, or so they can outperform other 3hp DC?? Anyone else got any thoughts on this, or know why this would be the case?


Ducting - found pricing on S&D 6" pvc lower than what I originally thought and the 6" snap lock ducting is 30 gauge, by the time I buy 26 gauge it's more expensive. So I think the 6" pvc with home made blast gates will probably be the way I go. I've seen several plans online for making single gates. I was thinking (dreaming?) of a 6" drop into a plywood box. The box would have 2x 4" hoses on the left and a 4" and 2.5" hose on the right with gates to close either side. These will feed the bandsaw and router table. Anyone got any thoughts on this, problems i might have other than sealing the gates? Seen any plans like this already?


The dust collector i want has a 7" ro 8" outlet and I'll be adapting to 6" PVC. Is there any problem just making a bushing out of plywood and tightening an 8" hose clamp to the outside?
 
Another dust collector question if anyone reads this. I can't think of any reason for a 1 man shop to have different size main and branch lines. All the air should be coming from any 1 machine at one time, and you don't want to velocity to slow down half way to the DC.

I understand if it is a comercial shop that could be using 2 branches at once, you would want a bigger main line with small branches. It just doesn't make sense that I can think of for 1 person.

So am I missing something here? All the manufacturers diagrams I look at drop down in size from the main line to the branches.
 
i have seen some of the homemade shutoffs and they work well jeb,,as for the single size, i went from 6 to 4 at the machine, but right at the machine not a ways off. so basically i had all 6" then transitioned it into a 8" inlet on the fan.
actually if yu can get ahold of some old used shutoffs they may work on the pvc as well. some versions are attached outside..
 
Yeah that's about what I was leaning towards, 6" close to the tools, flex as needed to match the tool ports. I was refering to system drawings I've seen with 8" main lines and 6" branches. I was thinking the 8" main woudln't really do much for me using 1 machine at a time. Cost a lot more to put that in too.
 
The reason they do that Jeb is to get thre required cfm at that particular machine and no more. That leaves more cfm for another branch but you also need to leave some of those branches open so you don't starev the dust collector for air.

I built the Bill Pentz design and am using the 16" impeller with the 5 hp motor. With 3 gates open I draw 18 amps. All of my machines have 6" ductwork going to them and I can use 3 at a time. I have about 7 feet of 8" main that reduces to 6" after the first split. All my blast ggates are home made. I posted a thread on building and installing my cyclone and ductwork last year.
 
Nice shop Bartee.

I looked at your thread Alan. That's an impressive amount of sheetmetal work :) I especially like the soldered transistions.

The larger branch lines make sense if you want to leave some gates open to keep from starving the fan. That way you can get plenty of air through the bigger ducts to keep them clean. I already was thinking of hooking a water gauge up to check the different tools in case there wasn't enough open area/air flow.
 
I think the main reason to start your DC system with larger diameter pipe and transition to smaller diameter is overall resistance to air flow. You also will have the ability to have more than one gate open. Check the "Shop Tour" on my website to see what I built.

For blast gates, I went with these from Lee Valley. I collected several shopmade designs from forums, but opted to buy in the interest of time.
 
Thanks Bill, I've looked at your site before but didn't look into the dust collection as closely. I think I'll definitely try and incorporate some of the ideas I see there. It's probably a little over my budget atm to do that kind of ducting though right now though.

I found a really informative site on planning your own air system in my digging:

http://www.airhand.com/designing.aspx#crm

They sell some ducting components too and have some non conventional stuff. From looking at their resources and the fan curves, it looks like you really need a 16" impellar to go up to 8" ducting. The 7" would be ideal for the 3hp like Bill has or the 3hp Grizzly. 8" looks more like it works best with a 5hp 16" impellar one from what I can tell.
 
I'm leaning towards the 3hp cyclone from grizzly. After looking at the clearvue, grizzly, oneida, etc the motor amp draw for the 3hp grizzley is 22 amps, and the 5hp is 22.4 amps. Most 3hp motors draw more like 15 amps and 5hp motors run 22-30 amps. Does that mean they put an oversize motor on it, maybe for commonality of parts, or so they can outperform other 3hp DC?? Anyone else got any thoughts on this, or know why this would be the case?


Ducting - found pricing on S&D 6" pvc lower than what I originally thought and the 6" snap lock ducting is 30 gauge, by the time I buy 26 gauge it's more expensive. So I think the 6" pvc with home made blast gates will probably be the way I go. I've seen several plans online for making single gates. I was thinking (dreaming?) of a 6" drop into a plywood box. The box would have 2x 4" hoses on the left and a 4" and 2.5" hose on the right with gates to close either side. These will feed the bandsaw and router table. Anyone got any thoughts on this, problems i might have other than sealing the gates? Seen any plans like this already?


The dust collector i want has a 7" ro 8" outlet and I'll be adapting to 6" PVC. Is there any problem just making a bushing out of plywood and tightening an 8" hose clamp to the outside?

I have six-inch PVC throughout the shop with four-inch drops to each machine. Everything runs clean even though I have only 2hp on the DC. It is a Penn State machine. The drop off in efficiency is significan with a second blast gate open. I am sure you will be unhappy if you do not utillize one blast gate per machine and only one blast gate open at a time.

I read a ton of material before I went into permanant ducting. I purchased the Penn State DC before I had enough information stored in my head. If I had not built with efficient ducting, I don't think the two hp could cut it.
I made a comment a month or two ago on FWW about how amazed I was at the clean insides of my ducts. There was dust only at the small dimple where six-inch ducts met six-inch wyes and ells. The rest of the system did not even have dust on the duct walls.

My old Delta Bandsaw still scatters a bit of dust on the back side of the table. I just cannot come up with a totally clean pick-up. I have not heard of anyone else that has solved that problem with the old machine. The drill press is satisfactory, but not perfect. Close enough to what I want that I have not spent time trying to make it better. The bottom of the TS is great; I don't have DC on top yet.

My problem areas are all for the same reason. I have not found a way to get DC intake in a position to be great without having the DC intake be in the way of wood working. Going to more hp would certainly help the situation. On the other hand I have a pretty clean shop (dust wise, not clutter wise). I had to put that parenthesis in or I would have heard from my son, Glenn.

Sorry, I am good at rambling. To cut to the chase: I am very happy with six-inch PVC and would definitely do that again.

I have, and would not do otherwise, have a blast gate for each individual machine.

I am glad that the DC is in the Outhouse, not the shop. They are noisy!

I would love to have each blast gate open when the machine is turned on...However, I keep finding more important places to spend my money. More on blast gates in a moment.

I used two forty-five degree ells to make right angle turns. This gives me much smoother air flow...again the 2 hp would not make it if I had ninty degree ells. To me, this is an "absolute must."

Back to blast gates:
I have red ribbon with a rare earth magnet glued into a fold. One of these hangs from each blast gate that is closed. The ribbon is removed (stuck on something down lower) when the gate is opened. This lets me take a quick glance around the shop to confirm all blast gates, except the one I am using are closed.

All of my PVC joints are just friction fits...one piece shoved into the another. I have had no leakage problems and no structural problems doing this. AND it is really great to easily modify the system when I add a new machine or move a machine to another location. There is no need for adhesive in the joints and there is no need for tape over the joints. I suspended the PVC with lengths of chain fastened to the rafters.

After reading a technical paper on the subject I opted to NOT run a static line with the PVC.

Glenn has a Grizzly DC. Why don't you PM him. Glenn Bradley.

If you have specific questions send me a PM.
 
Thanks for the resonse Jim. I already PM'd Glenn I read about his grizzly DC after searching the forums. I'm pretty much sold on the grizzly. I think the 2hp will meet my needs but would like the 3 hp which will do even better. Also sold on the 6" pvc. I might replace it some day with metal ducting but not at first. To much cash is going out to build the shop and I know there's going to be other things to buy. Alan's home made fittings and DC were impressive but I don't currently have the skills and with the hand surgery and all that's more than I'm up for currently.

In addition to help on this site, I found www.billpentz.com, www.airhand.com, grizzly's 16 page DC booklet and oneida-air's ductwork sites had a lot of good info. Once you get into the fine print, everyone pretty much says that if you only use 1 machine at a time, you might as well size all the ducting the same.

Still working on the blast gate design and maybe some home made transitions to go from the 6" pvc into multiple 4" hoses. Can't decide between saving time or money.
 
Hey this will stir the pot but its time to buy American.!!!!! Buy Oneida. They use American motors, American manufactured steell and balanced cast blades along with properly rated filter material. I bought the 3HP Oneida Gorilla.

Of course i have yet to hook mine up.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

We gotta put our money where our heart is.:thumb:

I do support Grizzly but to me Oneida is a specialist home grown company doing a bunch of innovation in dust collection and we should be supporting them with our dollar or dont have regrets when they not around. Just my 5 cents worth on trafe wars.:rofl::rofl:

Yeah i know they expensive but you all want to be working for Wal Mart?:D
 
Hey, yeah I'm not going to touch that argument. I do like the super gorilla, the clearvue, and the grizzly of the ones I looked at though. Price, options, budget all came into play for me.
 
Thanks Bill, I've looked at your site before but didn't look into the dust collection as closely. I think I'll definitely try and incorporate some of the ideas I see there. It's probably a little over my budget atm to do that kind of ducting though right now though. ...

I had to spread the expense over five phases of building my DC ducting system. Initially, I had an 8" to 6" transition, then a 6-4-4 wye with two lengths of 4" flex that I ran to whatever machine I was using.

Phase two was changing to an 8-7-7 wye in the intake of the DC with 7" pipe going two different directions to 7-6-5 wyes to give me two 5" drops with the 6" sides capped. I used 5" to 4" reducers to use my 4" flex to machines.

I continued each direction around the shop until I had the system complete. It probably took at least two years to get it all done and I can think of a couple of improvements now.

I bought all of the wyes, from Oneida because they have to be the type made for DC, not HVAC. I also bought the 7" pipe and first couple of sections of 6" pipe from Oneida when I ordered the wyes. The remainder of the 6" pipe and all 5" pipe came from a local HVAC supplier so I could get 26ga. The 4", 30ga from Lowe's was fine for the final connections.

It wasn't cheap, but I'm satisfied with the results. Having metal duct ensures that there is little, if any, issue of a shock hazard. I didn't keep detailed records of the expenditures, but I'd estimate the ducting cost was at least as much as the DC itself and probably more.

With the arrangement I have, I can have gates open to my miter saw, table saw and bandsaw at the same time with little reduction in performance. The MS and TS are on one branch; BS is on the other branch.
 
Last edited:
Had a minor setback today on the new shop. The electrician came out and looked at my panel, said there was no way I could pull 100 amp sub panel off my 200 amp house panel. Everything I have is electric, no gas appliances. This is really bad because I was estimating loads up to 60 amps in the shop. I don't want to be to close to the edge of tripping, losing lighting and power in a shop concerns me for safety. This is what I was thinking I'd be drawing:

220V
15A tool
17A DC
15A HVAC

110V
6A air filter
6-12A lighting
3A battery chargers
1A stereo

That would put me around 55-58 amps on a 220 circuit. I'm thinking this would tend to trip the sub panel if I loaded up a 3hp tool in the future. Anyone electrically inclined know if this is really to much for a 60Amp panel? Are my estimates on power draw low or high?

My two ideas right now are to spend more money on a high efficiency ductless heat pump instead of a window unit. It only draws about 7 amps max on a 220v circuit instead of 15A. Should cost less to heat the shop too, so it has some pluses. Having AC isn't something I'm likely to give up.

The other is to downsize from the grizzly 3hp DC. The 3hp has a 22amp motor based off the spec sheets. The 3hp oneida has a 15A motor with a smaller fan and the 2hp grizzly has a 14A motor with a much smaller fan.


On a good note, I did find a couple neat things for ducting:

PVC conduit elbows have a very nice long bend radius. Haven't found 6" pricing yet, but 4" run around $40 online. I will try and get some 6" pricing from electrical supply shops. There's a rediculous price for 6" on google shopping, but the same company wants like $200 for the 4" too.

PVC conduit apparently also comes in 3.5" size, which has a 4" OD, perfect for hooking up a 4" hose too. Kind of convenient.

I'm still looking for a good object to make 6" blast gate out of and hook up a 6" hose to. Best thing I've found so far is Coffee cans. I think they'd be heavy enough with the ridges in them.
 
Hi,

I have a lot more potential amperage draw than you. I have never tripped a breaker with overload. The main panel breakers supplying my shop sub-panel are two 30 amp.

Take some time. Sit down and figure, "What is my worst possible scenario?"...If I am a one-man shop (I am) what is the max I will have on at one time?

One of two 15 amp 110v radiant heaters
One of the following: Planer, Drill press, Router, Band saw, dry grinder, Disk or belt sander, Slow-speed wet sharpener, TS, etc.
Any of the above with DC (12 amp 220v).
My cooling system does not use electricity. It is called the Pacific Ocean.
I do not use air-tools so the air compressor is not going to be running at the same time as the DC.
If I "Blow-out the shop" I use the exhaust from one of my Shop Vacs. It is not running with any other equipment.
I probably have one of the better shops from the standpoint of lighting. I have five dual 8' T-12 fluorescent luminaires, four dual 4' T-8 6500 K and two 4' 3500 K luminaires.
I also have supplemental luminaires all ove the place.

However, in spite of all of the above, very little amperage is drawn at any one time. Yes, the lights are on most of the time. The DC runs only when a dust making machine is used. The FDC (did I get that right?) room air filter runs only when I do something that the DC cannot handle plus a couple hours longer.

Example: When using the TS I will definitely have on a couple 8' fluorescents and probably a couple 4' fluorescents and the DC. If it is cold, the 1,500watt radiant heater over the TS may be on also.

Heck. It is a hobby shop. I don't need to run the planer and the jointer at the same time and I don't.

I am wired almost 100% with #12 three conductor + ground.

Enjoy,

Jim
 
Top