Going from shed to 'shop

Chris Hatfield

Former Member (by the member's request)
Messages
380
I think I'm going to slowly take the next steps to outfit the shop for future purposes, even if that means it's not necessarily the the smartest choice.

The construction of the shed (142-144sqft) is as follows - it sits on cinder blocks on one side, ground (maybe - can't see) on the opposite side, with a ramp up to floor level. Inside and out for the walls is plywood. I'm not sure how thick the outside is, but the inside can't be more than 1/4" thick. I believe it has 2x4' stud construction, although I believe at least in parts they are horizontal studs. There is some measure of insulation in the walls. The floor looks to be of a MDF or MDO construction.

Since it sits on a hill, the underneath is exposed to the wind under a skirt that they tried to bridge the gap. Tried, but not successfully. The ceiling is the same 1/4" plywood, and it looks to be 2x4 construction in the rafters. Roof is in great shape, as are the shingles. Window is poor, but it's a window. Doors need to be replaced. There is a floodlight on the outside over the door, a light fixture inside in the middle, and one grounded outlet box - all hooked to no electricity. Apparently they ran some Romex over the ground at one point as temporary power but that got quickly discontinued (all this from the neighbor).

What I'd like to do is knock it down and build a 500sqft heated and powered shop out back. I then realize I should probably wake up and go to work. There's the possibility of adding power at some point. No reason to add plumbing, and I'm not sure adding a heat source in something that small would be safe. But, I do have some ideas of how to make things a bit more tolerable.

1) I'd like to make it a bit warmer in the winter.

I thought of a couple of ways to do this. First, since I'll most likely have some extra material from another project, is to get under the shed and insulate the floor as best I can. I'm not sure I want to extend the skirt down any further though. I defer to the experts, though.

Secondly, I'd like to rip out all of that super thin plywood from the walls and ceiling and put up either drywall or OSB. I know I'd prefer OSB. I'll be putting in a query to the local building code office to see if I need a firewall, but on a freestanding structure I don't think I'll be restricted in that way. I'll also probably be replacing the insulation and putting new in. I'll also be looking at the studs and may see if I can engineer vertical segments.

2) Planning for power

Since I'll be putting in new walls, I might as well put in a couple of more outlets, and make sure they are done right. I may pre-wire for some shallow ceiling lights, but I haven't decided about that yet. All of the existing wiring will be removed in the process. The outlets will be at bench height for better access.

3) Replacing the doors

I should have done this awhile back. I've got a plan for it, just need to do it.

4) Level in front

I have a decision to make if I want a level surface in front - grade the ground, or make a deck. Making a deck would probably be easier and less expensive, right?

Here's a question for you legal eagles. I was already told that renovation on the inside was allowed without permit as long as I wasn't doing HVAC, plumbing or electrical. If I'm redoing the wiring, but not going to hook it up to a live circuit at the time, would that still be considered needing a permit?

Any input on this? I wish I could just start over, but it's just not practical.
 
First thing I'd do is to make sure the shed isn't sitting directly on the ground on one end. Rot and bugs will get you real quick.
Second, I'd add another layer of OSB or plywood to the floor to make it more sturdy. There has gotta be some bounce the way that it sounds like it's built. A few heavy tools and it will sag for sure.
The plywood on the sides is probably siding (t-111 ?). I'd just leave it and add some rigid foam sheets between the studs. I can't imagine the roof would be 1/4" :huh:
Sounds like you are destined to an extension cord unless you can run a dedicated line from the house. I wouldn't worry about getting approval for a few extra outlets.
 
In terms of electric, I don't know your local code but around here if it on and extension cord that is plugged into a recepticle it doesn't need a permit. Now one thing i would do though is put a small sub panel in and get some #13 SO cord 12-3 with a ground and make a 220 Volt extension cord. You can then plug the shed into a 220 recepticle like a clothes dryer recept. Then you will have plenty of power and even have 200 if ya need it.
 
If you want to keep heating it to a minimum, insulate all sides. A space heater or oil filled heater will do a good job if the airflow is at a minimum.

I'd probably put up OSB with a moisture barrier underneath sealing out any outside air. OSB is cheap and will give you a way to hang things without having to locate a stud.

I'm not sure about the grading or building a deck, would need to see pics of the outside, but probably a deck. Reason being, my dad did something similar at their summer spot where he stores his tools in his shed. The deck railings are extra wide at the top for workbench space and even has a lower area to mount his chop saw. He built a canopy over this area to get out of the sun, but it's considered a patio, so it doesn't mess with him having to stay under a specific building size regulations. Wont help you in the winter, but you'll have lots of extra room on the warm days.

As for the electrical, I usually do work that I feel I'm capable of and let professionals do the rest. You may be able to work something out with an electrician friend that will let you do the work and sign off on it as his own as far as inspections are concerned to save you some money. There's some good suggestions above about just using an extension cord, I'd probably go the hard wire route and bury some conduit if possible long term.
 
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Hey new guy here
I don't know what kind of budget you have, but having a good electrical system would be a priority for me. Nothing worse than always needing 1 more plug or a little more lighting to see your fine woodworking skills.
I could stand to let the finish of the building go for a while and invest in some good wiring.
 
Ever local area on code is different, here anything under $1000 that doesnt' invovled a contractor doesn't require a permit. Electrical/plumbing might still need one, I'm not 100% sure. However, that's a temporary accessory building. I'm thinking you wouldn't need a permit to work on that in general. You can always call and ask, the clerk can usually tell you the answer to that kind of thing.
 
Wanted to address a couple of your thoughts real quick.

First thing I'd do is to make sure the shed isn't sitting directly on the ground on one end. Rot and bugs will get you real quick.
Second, I'd add another layer of OSB or plywood to the floor to make it more sturdy. There has gotta be some bounce the way that it sounds like it's built. A few heavy tools and it will sag for sure.
The plywood on the sides is probably siding (t-111 ?). I'd just leave it and add some rigid foam sheets between the studs. I can't imagine the roof would be 1/4" :huh:
Sounds like you are destined to an extension cord unless you can run a dedicated line from the house. I wouldn't worry about getting approval for a few extra outlets.

When I clear out that side of the property that will be one of the things I do. It'll probably entail replacing the exterior of that side as well. The floor does have some sort of ply underlayment. I do not know if the top layer is MDF, but it sure has that same look. The ceiling is 1/4", not the roof.

Extension cords have worked well so far. But if the time comes where I can afford to have electricity hooked up, I want to be ready to roll.

In terms of electric, I don't know your local code but around here if it on and extension cord that is plugged into a recepticle it doesn't need a permit. Now one thing i would do though is put a small sub panel in and get some #13 SO cord 12-3 with a ground and make a 220 Volt extension cord. You can then plug the shed into a 220 recepticle like a clothes dryer recept. Then you will have plenty of power and even have 200 if ya need it.

Sounds like an interesting idea. Very hard to access the plug for my dryer though.

If you want to keep heating it to a minimum, insulate all sides. A space heater or oil filled heater will do a good job if the airflow is at a minimum.

I'd probably put up OSB with a moisture barrier underneath sealing out any outside air. OSB is cheap and will give you a way to hang things without having to locate a stud.

I'm not sure about the grading or building a deck, would need to see pics of the outside, but probably a deck. Reason being, my dad did something similar at their summer spot where he stores his tools in his shed. The deck railings are extra wide at the top for workbench space and even has a lower area to mount his chop saw. He built a canopy over this area to get out of the sun, but it's considered a patio, so it doesn't mess with him having to stay under a specific building size regulations. Wont help you in the winter, but you'll have lots of extra room on the warm days.

As for the electrical, I usually do work that I feel I'm capable of and let professionals do the rest. You may be able to work something out with an electrician friend that will let you do the work and sign off on it as his own as far as inspections are concerned to save you some money. There's some good suggestions above about just using an extension cord, I'd probably go the hard wire route and bury some conduit if possible long term.

Hard wire is definitely the end game if I'm here long enough. I'll post up a pic tomorrow of the area I'm talking about.

Hey new guy here
I don't know what kind of budget you have, but having a good electrical system would be a priority for me. Nothing worse than always needing 1 more plug or a little more lighting to see your fine woodworking skills.
I could stand to let the finish of the building go for a while and invest in some good wiring.

Hard wiring is unfortunately more than a year away, if not more. So far I'm limited to working during the day anyway thanks to small kids.

Ever local area on code is different, here anything under $1000 that doesnt' invovled a contractor doesn't require a permit. Electrical/plumbing might still need one, I'm not 100% sure. However, that's a temporary accessory building. I'm thinking you wouldn't need a permit to work on that in general. You can always call and ask, the clerk can usually tell you the answer to that kind of thing.

The code guy was good to me last time I had a question, I'm definetly going to hit his office up again.
 
...A space heater or oil filled heater will do a good job if the airflow is at a minimum...

+1 on the oil-filled heater. I'd have no qualms about using one of those in a shop. I've been using one as a towel heater (and dryer) in the bathroom for the past 15 years or so.
 
This should give a good indication of the slope the shop is on.



There's no part in front of it that's level, and doing stuff outside is doable, but I'd rather be safer. Also, trying to bring long and heavy things (my rolling bench is an example) off or onto the ramp is an adventure. My thought was it would be easier and cheaper to build a PT or synthetic deck and have it level than to try and grade the slope. That is, of course, assuming the shed itself is level.

And as you can see, the left side is indeed sitting on the ground. I'm not sure there's much I can feasibly do about correcting that.
 
It appears that the left hand side is below grade. I'd dig that out and keep the dirt well below the siding, otherwise you're looking at some rot and termite damage in your future. Looks to me like a deck would be your best bet unless you build some retaining walls around the edges where the grade isn't in actual contact with the building. If the sub structure isn't treated lumber, you may want to dig it out as well and get it up on blocks.
 
I'll be looking at taking care of the left side come spring, when hopefully I can rent a chainsaw and go to town on these logs. I think they might even be hickory, but they've been sitting outside for at least two years - probably closer to five or more. Don't know if or how to save them. I think the shop may be slightly off level, but curiously the low end isn't on the blocks.

I'm considering two storage methods for the two whole walls - one is french cleats, the other is the hyper system found in the American Woodworker back catalog. (Link)

Wondering if anyone had experience with the latter. My clamp rack is done with a french cleat in a 2x4, but while it hasn't fallen down, I do have to seat it properly from time to time. French cleats would be much easier, quicker, and cheaper if I can get them to work right.
 
I realized that I've made a few different threads that probably should be merged with this one. I'll continue from here on out solely in this thread. My question about the dust collection will continue here as well, and ask that the other one be closed or merged.

How feasible will it be to have my miter saw in the slap middle of my main (and possibly only) permanent surface? I can always remove the saw for work, and put a shelf in if I need the whole surface. I'll want a fence, so I'll need to make it removable, but indexable. And it's gotta be flush. I think I could handle that.

Dust collection presents an issue if I want to truly use the surface. I was leaning toward a chute of some sort. I suppose I could make an insert of some sort in the top and have it in place when I need the surface. I could do that too.

What would be the best solution, if I had the space, would be to have a dedicated surface with a dedicated fence for this. On one wing could set a mortiser, integrated with the fence. Then the surface on the main cabs could be made to fold out and double the surface area for big projects.

To do that though, in my space, would most likely mean no big DC. Or floor jointer. I could make it so that my wood storage went below, but that's otherwise going to go on a wall. I'm not considering a cart at this point, due to the fact it would need a space to store both against the wall and the floor. One is doable, two is not. I also want to have a home for the MS, as many times I've wanted to use it but have not due to the task of setting it up. A permanent home it needs, says Yoda.

I'll post again as thoughts come to me.
 
I've had some different thoughts about making a full wall of cabinets at this time. I've seen a design for a miter bench that is one-sided, with a lot deeper counter, and now I'm conflicted.

Plan 1:
Back wall is a full width countertop with a miter saw in the middle, sunk to match the top. Drawers all over. Planer slides under the MS, spindle sander tucked into one of the drawers. Right side may flip up and table saw may store here.

Router table tucks under the drill press on an adjoining wall, along with the bandsaw. Table saw goes wherever it can on the opposite wall along with wood storage.

Plan 2:
Side walls have matching six foot countertops, a bit deeper. Two foot section on each one at an end houses the miter saw and planer, respectively. Both counters have drawers underneath. BS and DP/RT are stored at the ends of these tables. TS - don't know. Wood storage above and behind the planer counter, which would roll out to access sheet goods.

Don't know. Plan two would let me have my planer be stationary, which is a real positive.
 
Possibly. Most likely. I will usually roll it outside and use it there if weather is nice and I don't have to worry about dust collection. I've been meaning to make a folding extension for it.

This is a very interesting idea to me as well. I had thought about putting the router table under the drill press, but this might work too. Although, I would probably use it on the planer counter instead, and use a planer sled to ride over the top. I could then conceivably sit the current DC solution under it. But what to do if I get a real DC?

Decisions, decisions. I'll be stewing about this for days.
 
That router table/miter saw cabinet looks pretty useful. I'm all for combining/reducing the footprint of anything that takes up any floor space.

I like the idea of wall cabs with a worktable and/or tools positioned below them You could always have that cab setup to fit up against the wall, and have it on casters to be wheeled outside if you needed to for larger projects.
 
I think I've ruled out the miter/router table. Just personal reasons, plus putting the router table under the drill press doesn't take up much more space than the DP itself.

I worked out the space requirements as best I can last night, and this weekend I will be taking exact measurements and sketching it out down as accurately as possible. I looked at both ways to do it (one long cabinet wall vs shorter cab runs) and I think I'm going shorter cab runs. I think they will take less time to complete, and be more mobile if I need them to be.

The design is basically this. I'll have a couple modifications, mainly the use of drawers instead of open shelves.

There's one aspect I'm debating right now, and that's what to do with the planer. I see three options here. One, try my hand again at a flip-top cart and learn from my previous effort. Probably have a sled that will go in it to serve as small piece planing and extension tables. Two, to have it sit on a shelf or cart below it and trade it out with the miter saw. Not very fond of this one because I've been there, done that with lifting of this thing. The third option would be to build a second version on another wall and have it always ready to go. This would be my preference if I have the room, and I think I do. I would have about 5 feet on either side of the miter saw, and the room to plane a 4 foot board or so. The planer cabinet I might make mobile to utilize the door of the shop, but it will most likely be too big to wheel outside.

Over the planer bench would be my scrap storage, and over the miter saw would be a cabinet and part of the french cleat system. Ply storage might be attached to the back of the planer cabinet if it's mobile.
 
Got outside for about an hour (that seems like the extent I get anymore) and did some initial planning. Disassembled my drill press cart, and saw how the router table would look underneath. It's doable. Also decided I needed to get rid of my metal planer stand as it's way too big.

Believe I have the final layout sorted out, perhaps I can get it fleshed out in Sketchup this week.
 
The links got broken when I moved stuff around in my Photobucket account.

This was the first version of the shed:

shedview.png



I've progressed to this, and I think this is close to final:

shed2.png


I'll take you on a short tour so you can understand what is where.

On the left side of the screen is a 3' cabinet with multiple drawers, 36" high. On the far end is a sunken shelf that will house my miter saw. This shelf may also double as a downdraft sanding spot should I find the need. To the left of this cabinet is an empty spot for a dust collection unit. At first it will be my vacuum and separator, but there is enough room for the HF DC unit. Above these cabinets are wall cabinets for various goods, to be determined.

Next to this cabinet is my drill press, and next to that in the back left corner is the cubby that will house my lawnmower, and on top of that my golf clubs, behind a false wall. On this wall will be clamps. It will hinge open when I need to access the clubs.

Next to the lawnmower is my router table. It's on wheels, for when I need to handle big stock or mow the lawn. The bandsaw is far enough away where it doesn't need to be moved to access the lawnmower. There is a blank corner next to the bandsaw that I will be able to put sheet stock.

On the right wall under the window is my planer and another cabinet. Stored under the planer will be my spindle sander. In the front right corner will be my table saw, except mine will be vertical. Next to the window above the saw will be scrap storage. Above the table saw on the front entrance wall will be my detailing cabinet.

Above the router table and various other places will be a french cleat for hand and power tools.

I'll be able to cut up to six feet on the miter saw, and plane boards of four feet on the planer, which could be moved to accommodate greater lengths. Under the miter saw will be a gutter-style dust collector that will be hooked into the DC when needed. If I get the big DC, hose will travel on the floor behind the cabinets (I will have a cutout).

I'm also perhaps visualizing a drop down saw panel to handle full sheets when they first enter the shop. That's a bit of a pipe dream at the moment, but I think it could be done. I believe this setup could also fit a floor jointer next to the lawnmower. Air compressor would live under the miter saw or in front of the lawnmower. Obviously the lawn mower could eventually be moved to the basement as a last resort.
 
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