Menu
What's new

New Kitchen Project

Congrats on your first box! Thankfully the rest are much easier. ;)

I assume my dislike of pocket screws and face frames is largely irrelevent to most although I have good reasons for it.

I my view a pocket screw is nothing more then one method of hiding a mechanical fastener. It's not as sound as a through screw but the fastener is hidden and for many applications it's strong enough.

I don't see pocket screws as an efficient production method. You have to drill the pockets and install the screws one at a time. Nothing aligns the part so probably clamps and likely fiddling with alignment are required prior to driving the screws. Yes the screws are hidden but that is not an issue for kitchen cabinets, infact through screws are even more hidden. I fail to see any pay off in using pocket screws like this. Perhaps you can show me the light, why pocket screws and not through screws?

Biscuts are an excellent solution for many one off customs. In production their strength becomes their weakness. Parts are not percisely and automatically aligned.

In my experience dowels don't fail. Over the past 25 or so years I or my shop have produced literally thousands of doweled boxes, including drawers maybe over ten thousand. Dowel failure zero.

It seems to me that the vast majority of cabinet manufacturers worldwide have chosen dowels as the most rational solution to date. I happen to agree with them.

You have a wonderfully shop Doug, in some ways just starting you've already accomplished more then most ever do. Enjoy it. :)
 
ed,

when you say through screws...do you mean putting a screw through the side of the cabinet and into the shelf? i assume this is what you mean. i just wanna make sure i understand you correctly.

can you explain why you don't like face frames? other than the look of the cabinet i can't understand why someone would think face frames are not a good thing.

thanks
chris
 
Ed Kowaski said:
Congrats on your first box! Thankfully the rest are much easier. ;)

I assume my dislike of pocket screws and face frames is largely irrelevent to most although I have good reasons for it.

I my view a pocket screw is nothing more then one method of hiding a mechanical fastener. It's not as sound as a through screw but the fastener is hidden and for many applications it's strong enough.

I don't see pocket screws as an efficient production method. You have to drill the pockets and install the screws one at a time. Nothing aligns the part so probably clamps and likely fiddling with alignment are required prior to driving the screws. Yes the screws are hidden but that is not an issue for kitchen cabinets, infact through screws are even more hidden. I fail to see any pay off in using pocket screws like this. Perhaps you can show me the light, why pocket screws and not through screws?

Biscuts are an excellent solution for many one off customs. In production their strength becomes their weakness. Parts are not percisely and automatically aligned.

In my experience dowels don't fail. Over the past 25 or so years I or my shop have produced literally thousands of doweled boxes, including drawers maybe over ten thousand. Dowel failure zero.

It seems to me that the vast majority of cabinet manufacturers worldwide have chosen dowels as the most rational solution to date. I happen to agree with them.

You have a wonderfully shop Doug, in some ways just starting you've already accomplished more then most ever do. Enjoy it. :)
Click to expand...


Thanks for the compliments Ed.

You are right about dowels being the vast majority of construction. That is the TRUE euro method and I know it works. I have read about cases where dowels have failed because of shrinkage. This is probably few and far between.

When I am putting together a euro box I want the front edge absolutely perfect..this is where the edgebanding meets in the corner. To do this I clamp the sides to the top or bottom(which ever I'm doing first) then take a rubber mallet to tap in place to get everything perfect. Then I install the screws. Actually it is easier to install it through the end than pockets but I still like the pockets for some situations.

Now my question to you is can you get the dowels drilled and installed so it's a perfect fit? Do you use a construction boring machine? They to are expensive. Then you need a case calmp so then it becomes a space issue.

I would be interested to know how you go about your dowel construction process. If you could elaborate that would be great.

Doug
 
Chris Mire said:
ed,

when you say through screws...do you mean putting a screw through the side of the cabinet and into the shelf? i assume this is what you mean. i just wanna make sure i understand you correctly.

can you explain why you don't like face frames? other than the look of the cabinet i can't understand why someone would think face frames are not a good thing.

thanks
chris
Click to expand...

I've heard people say you lose to much room in your cabinet by using faceframes. I think they have their place. You can make the cabinets look more like furniture. I'm sure Ed will explain.

Doug
 
Hi guys.

Sorry for breaking in, but as my english woodworking vocabulary is rather limited I can't figure out what sort of screws are pocket screws. Could any of you post a pic of one? I think that would be the easyest way of enlightening me.
 
Ned Bulken said:
Doug,
I'm a face frame fan, you don't lose any room inside the cabinet at all, you just have a bit smaller door(way) into the cabinet. at most an inch or so.
Click to expand...

Your right about that, but you do lose alot in your drawer widths. This particular kitchen I'm doing has all drawers in the base cabinets. The only doors are on the sink cabinet, broom closet and a pullout trash can. The pantry has 4 drawers below. So if we used face frames on this kitchen we would have lost alot of space. That is why we went this route.

Doug
 
Chris Mire said:
doug,

what type of slides will you be using in all those drawers? the money adds up quick if your using the high dollar ones.

chris
Click to expand...

I'll be using the Blum full extension tandem with the blumotion. I think the hinges and slides are around $600. The hinges will be Blum 120 degree. I get a pretty good price from my supplier.

Doug
 
doug,

i love those slides and those hinges. no one (in my opinion) makes better hinges than blum, they are the easiest to adjust i have found so far.

have you done the tandem's yet? i just finished some, i love the smooth feel and the ease of adjustment, also they are extremely easy to take in and out once installed, the boxes i mean.

good luck
chris
 
Doug Sinjem said:
When I am putting together a euro box I want the front edge absolutely perfect..this is where the edgebanding meets in the corner.
...
Now my question to you is can you get the dowels drilled and installed so it's a perfect fit? Do you use a construction boring machine? They to are expensive. Then you need a case calmp so then it becomes a space issue.

I would be interested to know how you go about your dowel construction process. If you could elaborate that would be great.

Doug
Click to expand...

A quality drilling machine will do a perfect fit over and over and over again. Beware of cnc though, they index everything from 0,0 unlike manual machines which index from the front and outside edge. Perfect fit with point to point cnc requires perfect cutting. Unless a cnc beam saw is in your future I'd stay away from cnc drilling.

I have a 23 spindle single tilting head machine.

A case clamp is not essential, besseys work pretty well, but nice to have. Commercial case clamps are huge, I have no idea why. I build one case clamp years ago and will probably build another. The fit on doweled cases is tight, they only need to be clamped for a couple of minutes.
 
Chris Mire said:
ed,

when you say through screws...do you mean putting a screw through the side of the cabinet and into the shelf? i assume this is what you mean. i just wanna make sure i understand you correctly.

can you explain why you don't like face frames? other than the look of the cabinet i can't understand why someone would think face frames are not a good thing.

thanks
chris
Click to expand...

Yes that is exactly what I mean Chris.

I'll get to this why I don't like face frame thing, soon I hope.
 
Thanks Ed, in doing research I know what your talking about on the point to point. From what I understand something like the Gannomat Mentor 25 is the way to go. You can get perfect corners even with out of square panels.

Now what about dowel inserters? Or do you install by hand?

Doug
 
Doug

It looks like a great job! And it is interesting to read the back and forth about the construction issues associated with a production shop.

This lowly amateur likes pocket screws, they work for me because "time isn't money, it is enjoyment".

Jay
 
Jay Knoll said:
Doug

It looks like a great job! And it is interesting to read the back and forth about the construction issues associated with a production shop.

This lowly amateur likes pocket screws, they work for me because "time isn't money, it is enjoyment".

Jay
Click to expand...

Jay, I think Ed has brought some good insight to this thread. I think dowels and pocket screws both have their place in cabinet constuction. It just depends on what you can afford and maximize your productivity.

Doug
 
Chris Mire said:
doug,

what did you decide about the drawer fronts for this job. and what happened to all the pics???

chris
Click to expand...

Chris haven't decided on the drawer fronts yet. Have been down with the flu for two days and still reeling from the stock market catastrophe it hasn't been a good start to the week.

I was supposed to already have the drawer boxes built. Also still waiting on a few accessories to run door parts on the shaper. I will post pics asap.

Doug
 
For me any drilling machines is better then none. A good single tilting head unit can do a tremendous amount of work and allows angled joints to be dowled. The real jewel in drilling machines are the 3 head machines. (2 vert. 1 horiz. with 23 drills per head).

I've never owned or used an insertion machine. I expect they work well. I have noted that many shops use pre glued dowels in their machines, I'd have to be convinced that is a good method. I believe most if not all insertion machines will put glue in the hole rather then water for pre glued dowels.

For hand insertion getting the right amount of glue in the hole and spread properly is the tedious bit. A pnumatic glue pot with a dowel nozzle makes it easy and quick. Very handy for all glue applications around the shop with some added nozzles. Lamello and many others offer such items. One of those how did I manage without it tools.

A strong point for doweling is the scalability. ;)

Hope your feeling better Doug.

Ed
 
Have been busy and started door construction but haven't taken many pictures but here are a few:

This is an aigner thicknessing stop that I used to run all the profiles on the rails and styles

kitchen constr 009.jpg

kitchen constr 008.jpg

Here they are all processed


kitchen constr 006.jpg


Used the jointer to flatten all the raised panels before running them through the planer

kitchen constr 001.jpg

kitchen constr 002.jpg

kitchen constr 004.jpg

LOML helping out o the widebelt

kitchen constr 011.jpg

kitchen constr 010.jpg


Another Aigner tool to do the counter profile on the rails

kitchen constr 007.jpg


Just need to size the panel and run them on the shaper and will be ready to assemble all the doors. I'll try and get pictures of raising the panel on the shaper with the power feeder and aigner fence.


Doug
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top