Tools, how good do they need to be?

I was taught to get as good a tool as you could afford and learn to use it... the tool doesn't make the craftsman, it's the learning part that works best.

For me, I try and buy the level of tool I feel I need, and sometimes that's top of the line, sometimes it's HF.

Great points Guys.

While I was out in the shop I thought about it a bit more.

Bill Satko said:
I still hold firm in the belief that you are better off saving and getting quality, but understand that we are now instant gratification world willing to buy disposable products as long as we get that widget.

Bill, I'm not sure that's exactly a fair statement. Someone could buy a very expensive Brand new Lie Nielsen plane? Maybe they have to save up months in order to buy it. Or they could buy a dirty rusty used plane for a lot cheaper, that with a little elbow grease might work just as well as making curlies.

Or let's put another spin on it. What if we move the analogy to something like cars? What if someone needs a car (or a tool) to go to work (or to get something done). What if they can't afford a Cadillac (or a sawstop). What is wrong with getting a Kia (or a Grizzly) so that they can get done what they need to get done?

I think there are lots of different aspects to the hobby of woodworking. For some, it's about the aesthetics of the tool. For others, the tool, cheap or costly, is merely a means to an end.

Some people drool over the latest most expensive fancy car. For me, I've already got my dream car, and that's my 10 year old F-350. :rofl:

To each his own, I say :thumb:
 
nope sorry, most power tools that are cheap in price are cheap in quality and any craftsperson who wants and expects a machine to perform a certain way will not buy a harbor freight machine.(consistent performance at the same high level)
If harbor freight machinery performed well, Jet, Powermatic, festool, would all be out of business. Please, lets be real here. There is no comparison between a HF lathe and a jet lathe. No comparison at all. What good is spending 149 dollars on a lathe if its a piece of garbage?

I owned 2 HF tools, one stopped working after an hour, and the other scared me, so I returned it.
HF does have an excellent return policy, but I dont like spending my time shuffling back to return things I need to use.
 
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nope sorry, most power tools that are cheap in price are cheap in quality and any craftsperson who wants and expects a machine to perform a certain way will not buy a harbor freight machine.

I think you are ignoring all of the previous statements people have made about caveat emptor. Nobody is saying that all, or even most, or any, of their tools are the best. Just that some of them are 'ok', and not every one needs, or can afford, the best.

If that's the test, then we all should be driving Mercedes, Cooking on on AllClad, wearing Rolex watches, using Sawstops, and using top of the line Cameras.

I don't buy it that you can't find a good bargain at Harbor Freight. You just have to be careful about what you buy and to assess your needs and budget appropriately.
 
Its not about paying alot of money.
Its about paying for a machine that will deliver and be consistent.
People who cant afford a new powermatic saw might spend 1/3 for a used powermatic, but will still get the performance and consistent operation expected of a quality machine.
 
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Ahh, and there you go. Buying used is a valid alternative as well.

That's why I brought up the used plane versus the new plane point.

And I'd agree with you for the most part, HF power tools can be junk. The motors will wear out sooner, the bearings are probably crap.

But it's not all about just the cheap drill or lathe or whatever.

I've got a big honking drill I bought for mixing mortar for doing my fireplace. Should I have spent 250$ and gotten a really good big honking drill? The el-cheapo 40$ is still going strong and it mixes mortar quite good still. I really didn't need a name brand for that job...
 
And I think I'm done here.

Not me. I have been busy making shavings. The nice thing about hand tools is they allow you to think and ponder.

When did tools become consumables? Has it always been that way? I don't think so. Tools had a value that was cherished and respected. Good craftsmen took care of them, bad ones did not. Tools lasted, as we can see today with the Distton saws and Stanley planes that still have value today.

I believe that over time and due to consumer choices, most manufacturers have gone away from providing better tools. Most now produce a cheaper more disposable tool, because that is what consumers want and spend their money on. The market talks and the manufacturer listens. So instead of saving up for a Porter Cable or Milwaukee router, we whip on over to Harbor Freight and pick up a Chicago router. Instead gratification. So what if it craps out in a year or two, we will just buy another and reinforce that the manufacturers are right; we only want disposable tools.

The following is from Chris Schwarz's editorial in the latest Popular Woodworking, just substitute tools instead of furniture:

"The ability to fulfill our desires in mere moments has cheapened our appreciation for the labor required to make anything. Because mass-manufacturing has made goods so inexpensive, we are willing to throw away once-permanent objects - such as furniture - when we grow tired of the way it looks.

So naturally manufacturers respond by making even cheaper goods that are designed to last only a short time."

Everyday there is less and less quality products being made, because that is where we put our money. We have no one to blame but ourselves. I am just as guilty, but I am trying hard to buck the trend.

OK, now I think I am done here.
 
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Money is, and always will be the main deciding factor when purchasing any tool from any manufacturer or distributor.
Im quite sure the guys that open HF stores dont think they are competing with Jet or Powermatic.
Its a different part of the market they are looking for, and obviously found it.
 
I'm late to the fray, but I'm like a lot of other folks here...I have some HF stuff, some mid-level stuff, and some higher-end stuff. All three "classes" of tools have a place in my shop.

Buying the low-end stuff always carries some risk, but it can be worth it at times. My HF dust collector has been a good investment in my opinion. On the other hand, I've bought two or three compressors from them that had to be returned within a month or two of buying them. (Others have had great success with compressors from HF.) I generally wouldn't buy any of their powered hand tools, but the HF right angle drill I use for sanding on the lathe is still going strong after three or four years. (But then again, an identical drill, bought at the same time as mine, lasted less than a month for Stu in Tokyo. My 1 and 2 pound HF dead blow hammers would have been a bargain at twice the price, but there's not too much a manufacturer can mess up when it comes to building a dead blow hammer. I would typically stay away from any HF edge tools including drill bits and saw blades, but as Brent learned, the diamond blades worked fine for cutting flagstone on his project. Some of their other things like casters and moving dollies have been great investments. (I've bought the HF moving dollies on sale at $9.99 just to get four decent caster for ten bucks.) But a router, a power saw, or a lathe? Not likely, unless it was a situation like Chuck mentioned where it's easier and less expensive to buy a throw-away tool than to drive 4 hours to go pick up your good one at home.

I'd say you generally get what you pay for, but sometimes it's not necessary (in my opinion) to pay for the best.
 
Bill I tend to agree with you:D
Here is my argument .
I have spent most of my career in design development manufacturing and marketing products.
Now the hard part for people to accept is that selling price has no connection to cost. Selling price is a function of what the market will pay. The thing that determines this is the quality of the item but also how it's marketed.
The value creation and therefore softening of your pocket book starts right at the packaging presentation and what other equivalent product it is put next to when in the market.
I would like to give you a real world non tool personal direct experience.
The business I was president of back in sa made a component called a vehicle detecto. We had the dominant market share in Europe. One of our competitors tried to take us on in the market in Germany. They were trading on being German made. Now we have all been sold on "German Engineering" being quality and so when some of our customers were faced with an offer of a cheaper "equivalent" product to ours made in Germany vs our sa product made in "Africa" so we had a couple jump ship. Now let me make it clear I never sold on price, my product was quality just like a lee valley plane.
But I was to defend my market, so I "arranged" to get my hands on the competing product and had my engineers give it a work over. Well what do you know, we found "German Engineering" to be deficient. In order for the to compete with us they had removed impotent components from their circuit boards. They took out $1 with of components that translated into $5 at the market place level. What they had seen fit to do is remove electicalsurge protection and lightning protection. No good engineer would do that to their customer if they have any long term relationship in mind.
We simly lay their product out next to ours with the packaging stripped off and took some photos and then had them printed en mass and marked them up and let our customers buyers and our distributors have them. That put paid to them.
But here you have a commercial case to make for buying quality.

The debate though here is the issue of these tools in your hobby.

In a hobby we are not dealing with a commercial proposition unless as hobbyists we put a value on our time and we consider how a good quality tool helps make up for less than perfect skill.
Besides personal tool budgets these issues will vary for all of us depending on how we each view the value of time in the shop. For someone that is retired this will be different than for someone that may have a job/family responsibilities were shop time is scarce and therefore one may not wish to be aggravated by the performance of H F tools.
In addition we are talking about the consumer market and not every consumer has the ability to discern the difference between quality tools and junk.
We forget that we are a relatively small group. Even if you stack up all the woodworking forums.
The volume of consumption is huge by comparison to our group.
 
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I think of it this way...Guitars made by Rickenbacker, Seagull, Taylor, Fender etc. etc. all make beautiful music! But, I've also heard jaw dropping tunes played on cigar boxes, beat-up no names and the likes...to me, it's what you do with what you have in hand, that matters more than what it cost or where you bought it from.

True the high end stuff may last longer, but IMO, there's no better feeling than accomplishing something on the cheap that matches the deep pockets stuff... personally, I can make a cat scream & scram by playing anything with strings no matter the cost :rofl: same could probably be said about some of my woodwork :eek::rofl: ......long live HF, Guitar center, K-Mart etc :thumb:

FWIW: the above perspective is primarily based on the fact of SWMBO, 'MBO!!!', LOL, I should of never asked her to hold my wallet, I haven't seen it since 1987 :D
 
...I can make a cat scream & scram by playing anything with strings no matter the cost :rofl:...

I made a very nice case for a pair of sub-$100 pool cues. I tell people I can lose with a $100 stick just as well as I can with a $1000 stick. :p (But I usually have one of the prettiest cue cases in the bar.)

When I taught and played guitar for a living, I used an old beat-up Harmony to teach lessons, primarily to show the kids that you didn't need a $1000 Gibson to play a ZZ Top song. On stage though, I used professional-grade guitars, because they sounded better and were easier to play. I think that some tools do help the craftsman do a better job more easily, but in the absence of such tools, good things can still be made. :thumb:
 
I think of it this way...Guitars made by Rickenbacker, Seagull, Taylor, Fender etc. etc. all make beautiful music! But, I've also heard jaw dropping tunes played on cigar boxes, beat-up no names and the likes...to me, it's what you do with what you have in hand, that matters more than what it cost or where you bought it from.

True the high end stuff may last longer, but IMO, there's no better feeling than accomplishing something on the cheap that matches the deep pockets stuff... personally, I can make a cat scream & scram by playing anything with strings no matter the cost :rofl: same could probably be said about some of my woodwork :eek::rofl: ......long live HF, Guitar center, K-Mart etc :thumb:

:D

Ok, first Ken, I am not picking on you, just using your perspective.

Here is the problem with this line of thinking. It does have logic, and it does fit what Ken can do, but if everyone had this attitude there would be no fine woodworking. Why would anyone buy an entertainment center from me for 10k, when they can down to WallyWorld and buy one for $300 that does exactly the same thing?

And I have to disagree that given equal skils, that the end product will be the same. You may well be able to do better work than some with less tool investment, but I would wager a bunch that you could do even better with a better set of tools. Again, I am not trying to insult you or your tools, so please don't take it that way. I'll agree that the money spent on tools does not make the craftsman, but I will not agree that there is no difference in quality with different grades of tools.

Take for example a combination square, a tool I use a lot. I can use one that is 10 bucks, and do on the job site, or I can use one that is 100 bucks, and that I do in the shop. Now both are basically the same thing, but there is a difference in the quality of my layout between the Sears I use on site and the Mitatoyo I use in the shop. The layout is crisper with the better tool, it adjusts faster, and the work always seems to go together with less issues. If I could afford it I would use a Mitatoyo everywhere, but job sites are hard on tools.

By the way I do own a Harbor Freight worm drive saw......

I needed a cheap tool to do some destruction, and it fit the bill.
 
I found that last bit kinda funny, as a lot of the HF stuff is built in the same factory as the Grizzly and other import name brands. Especially the band saw.

.

no eggshells here, no nothing, just want to mention something after reading this, because I dont know these things.

The kid(hes not a kid anymore, hes 38 with one kid of his own now) that worked for me for 22 years, married a woman who worked and currently works in the garment industry.
She spends 1/3 of the year travelling all over the world, asia, south america, central america, etc.
I asked my employee what does she do exactly, and he explained shes in quality control.
Seems this practice of companies using the same factories to manufacture for different companies is quite common.
She has to make sure (I dont remember what clothing lines she represnted, but I know they were big designers)the factories werent cheating and making a quality shirt(whatever that is, with linen counts and all that) for her company even though the girl sitting at the next work station was making shirts for a mega retailer that sells them for 8.99 retail. They looked similar, but in reality there was no comparison.
She has this job, in quality control and is paid a comfortable 6 fix income, to make sure the factories banging out 10 dollar shirts and 120 dollar shirts are doing the right thing.
Id find it hard to believe Grizzly has the exact machines being made for them in the same factory as HF. I wouldnt be shocked, but Id find it a bit odd.
 
no eggshells here, no nothing, just want to mention something after reading this, because I dont know these things.

The kid(hes not a kid anymore, hes 38 with one kid of his own now) that worked for me for 22 years, married a woman who worked and currently works in the garment industry.
She spends 1/3 of the year travelling all over the world, asia, south america, central america, etc.
I asked my employee what does she do exactly, and he explained shes in quality control.
Seems this practice of companies using the same factories to manufacture for different companies is quite common.
She has to make sure (I dont remember what clothing lines she represnted, but I know they were big designers)the factories werent cheating and making a quality shirt(whatever that is, with linen counts and all that) for her company even though the girl sitting at the next work station was making shirts for a mega retailer that sells them for 8.99 retail. They looked similar, but in reality there was no comparison.
She has this job, in quality control and is paid a comfortable 6 fix income, to make sure the factories banging out 10 dollar shirts and 120 dollar shirts are doing the right thing.
Id find it hard to believe Grizzly has the exact machines being made for them in the same factory as HF. I wouldnt be shocked, but Id find it a bit odd.

Actually, when Bridgewood was in business they had a page in their catalog discribing the process and how you could pick any quality you wished to import. Well maybe not any quality.......:rolleyes:

I am sure even though they are made on the same line all Chi/Wan imports are not created equally.
 
I think of it this way...Guitars made by Rickenbacker, Seagull, Taylor, Fender etc. etc. all make beautiful music! But, I've also heard jaw dropping tunes played on cigar boxes, beat-up no names and the likes...to me, it's what you do with what you have in hand, that matters more than what it cost or where you bought it from.

True the high end stuff may last longer, but IMO, there's no better feeling than accomplishing something on the cheap that matches the deep pockets stuff... personally, I can make a cat scream & scram by playing anything with strings no matter the cost :rofl: same could probably be said about some of my woodwork :eek::rofl: ......long live HF, Guitar center, K-Mart etc :thumb:

FWIW: the above perspective is primarily based on the fact of SWMBO, 'MBO!!!', LOL, I should of never asked her to hold my wallet, I haven't seen it since 1987 :D

There's a guy named Seasick Steve that plays great music on a three string guitar and a string nailed to a piece of wood that most people wouldn't touch. And he's made a nice little career out of it, possibly by the intrigue caused by using 'instruments' that you'd never find anyone else using.




I tend to take things more personally than I should, and I acknowledge that. So when I see people say that HF stuff is worthless, it's a bit of an indirect insult to those who find and enjoy good tools at places like that, Northern or etc. Is every tool worth buying at these places? Of course not. I've had a few things I've bought there that I would never buy again, and I've warned people off of in the store. There are things there that I've personally tried though that give me no reason to spend more money on them. And there are quite a few things there that get universally good reviews compared to even the most expensive tools. The list for exceptionally good values is of course even bigger than that.

What bothers me, and I think I've been pretty consistent about stating it, is the initial cost barrier to those starting a new hobby. I know that there is the idea of trying to save people money by recommending them to buy tools once, and I can appreciate that. I think though recommending someone avoid say the $40 HF drill press that would last someone 3-4 years in favor of the $400 one to start with is the wrong path. Are we being up front about the true cost of the hobby or are we turning people away by telling them there is a minimum recommended floor?

I'm not saying cheap is the universal starting point for new entries to the hobby, far from it. I think good and thorough research is needed for any price point. The more reviews and personal experience shared with these lower price items the better it is for everyone. I think everyone wants to spend less money, I don't imagine I have that wrong. Let's say buy this not that, but we should try to do it without an initial prejudice about it by what color it is or what name is on the side.

I might be completely wrong about it. But unless someone wants to send me some more expensive comparison tools, I have to go on what I know. Some get enjoyment out of better tools, and I'm sure I would agree. I'm a bit more simple and get the enjoyment out of using tools period. I wouldn't have any enjoyment at all if I avoided the lower price tools, because I would have chosen a different hobby.

Caveat emptor. Choose your tools carefully, $2 or $2000.
 
There's a guy named Seasick Steve that plays great music on a three string guitar and a string nailed to a piece of wood that most people wouldn't touch. And he's made a nice little career out of it, possibly by the intrigue caused by using 'instruments' that you'd never find anyone else using.




I tend to take things more personally than I should, and I acknowledge that. So when I see people say that HF stuff is worthless, it's a bit of an indirect insult to those who find and enjoy good tools at places like that, Northern or etc. Is every tool worth buying at these places? Of course not. I've had a few things I've bought there that I would never buy again, and I've warned people off of in the store. There are things there that I've personally tried though that give me no reason to spend more money on them. And there are quite a few things there that get universally good reviews compared to even the most expensive tools. The list for exceptionally good values is of course even bigger than that.

What bothers me, and I think I've been pretty consistent about stating it, is the initial cost barrier to those starting a new hobby. I know that there is the idea of trying to save people money by recommending them to buy tools once, and I can appreciate that. I think though recommending someone avoid say the $40 HF drill press that would last someone 3-4 years in favor of the $400 one to start with is the wrong path. Are we being up front about the true cost of the hobby or are we turning people away by telling them there is a minimum recommended floor?

I'm not saying cheap is the universal starting point for new entries to the hobby, far from it. I think good and thorough research is needed for any price point. The more reviews and personal experience shared with these lower price items the better it is for everyone. I think everyone wants to spend less money, I don't imagine I have that wrong. Let's say buy this not that, but we should try to do it without an initial prejudice about it by what color it is or what name is on the side.

I might be completely wrong about it. But unless someone wants to send me some more expensive comparison tools, I have to go on what I know. Some get enjoyment out of better tools, and I'm sure I would agree. I'm a bit more simple and get the enjoyment out of using tools period. I wouldn't have any enjoyment at all if I avoided the lower price tools, because I would have chosen a different hobby.

Caveat emptor. Choose your tools carefully, $2 or $2000.



Well said Chris :thumb:
 
Actually, when Bridgewood was in business they had a page in their catalog discribing the process and how you could pick any quality you wished to import. Well maybe not any quality.......:rolleyes:

I am sure even though they are made on the same line all Chi/Wan imports are not created equally.

That's correct. I'm sure the lower end importers like HF get the 'B' spec parts. Scratch here, dent there. My HF saw is pretty much a Grizzly or Delta, or any other 14" imported saw of a similar style. Some minor differences, perhaps not upgrades like roller guides like on the G0555. Or a closed stand on a Delta. But for most of the parts the stamping is the same. I bought mine based on someone taking the previous model number HF saw and upgrading it with several Grizzly parts.

Now not all of my holes lined up exactly, and I had to add a washer or two to get it to run just how I would like. For stuff like this, I like to say that instead of QC being done in the factory, I get to do the QC. For a savings of $5, I'll let the factory do that. But for $3-400? I can do a pretty good quality check for that and be happy to do it. Plus with no delivery fee and local return, it was worth at least trying out. I'm very happy with it so far, but could see how a pro, or even an amateur who sells his product might want to spend a bit more and buy a Powermatic or the sort.

There is buying used to get better quality, but I found that I was going to be paying the same price for something used (and abused) without a warranty. I decided to take a chance on the HF version and I've been very happy so far.:)
 
I buy tools based on the amount of use they are going to get. Acouple of years ago I did a job that required 4 custom columns. I didn't have time to do endless e-mails and phone calls to get them made let alone wait on them to be made so I bought an inexpensive grizzly lathe. I always wanted to try turning but wasn't sure if it would stick. Well the lathe did the job very well and it has sat ever since. Same with the multi tool I bought from harbor freight for $30 versus $200 plus for the fien. The amount of use to cost wasn't there to support that much money for a tool. I have used the fien and the harbor freight does just as good of a job as the fien.

That brings us to what Rob talked about with pricing and what the market will bear versus what it actually cost to produce. I was getting ready to start my kitchen when the kreg beaded faceframe jig was introduced to the market. I went to Woodcraft to look at it and was talking to the manager about it and the $500 price tag on it. The kreg rep had asked him what he thought the market would bear on it and he said $250 to $300 so they stuck a $500 price tag on it. To me it's not worth that so I made on that does the job just as well for nothing out of scraps laying around the shop I probably would have thrown out.

I guess I'm trying to say they need to be good enough to do the job at hand taking in mind how many more times your actually going to be using that tool. It makes no sense spending a fortune on a tool only to have it gather dust after a short time of use.
 
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