Leveling the foot on a Vessel

Dan Mosley

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Palm Springs, Ca
I was reading on AAW the other nite about different ways turners finish off the bottoms of their vessels. There are times when i have problems with my own method and thought I would see how others are doing theirs.

Here is the way I finish the foot on my vessel (Green Wood)

Picture 1-3 showing that I have turned this to final shape and has the tennon still attached. This vessel will dry inside for several weeks or more before being returned to the lathe to be finished sanded and parted off.

Picture 4 - showing one of two ways i finish it and part it off - in the picture im using a mandrel and with a little adjustment and securing im ready to take a couple cuts on the bottom down to the tennon to level is out. Then I take the nub down as far as i can and cut the nub free. Then slice off the nub and take to the drill press sander and finish sand and level the bottom by holding it up to the turning disk. Pictures 5-6

Reason is there is not much room to sand the bottom between the tennon and the bottom of the vessel so alot of times it is marked up and needs additional sanding. Doing it on the Drill press works well but you have to play around alot of times to keep it level by testing on a flat surface and doing more sanding.

Other method after drying is to remount it finish sand and just leave it in the chuck and take the tennon down as far as i can then cut it free. Again, slice off the remaining nub and take to the drill press sander. Pictures 5-6

I like the drill press method for finish sanding on the bottoms of vessels but the draw back can be in the leveling as you finish it that way.

Thoughts..............
 

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I don't leave nearly as much waste material at the bottom, but it'd be hard to describe the way I do it without photos. I'll have to get some pics to show how I typically do it. I think I've got a hollow form in the shop that's about ready to be finished. I'll grab some photos then.
 
I usually do it much the same way as Dan; most of time there is not as much waste as in those pictures. I turn away enough of the waste to allow the foot center to be recessed slightly. That makes leveling easier.
 
Dennis - not sure I follow how you do the center of the foot - my way is with a 3" round hard rubber disk with velcro attached sandpaper disks to get all the tool marks out and do the finish sanding...............maybe you can show me or explain if your doing it differently...........thanks
 
Dan, the hollow form I had in mind wasn't dry enough to finish, but I did finish a bowl tonight, and I do the foot on a bowl the same way as I would a hollow form.

First, the bottom of hollow form that I didn't finish, just to show how long my tenon is. This one has a larger tenon than I would usually use, but it started as a much larger piece of wood (I cut back quite a way to get around some cracks). I left the bottom on this one a little thick so that when I do finish it, I will be able to reshape the bottom and get a smaller foot...

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Now, the bowl I did finish, with a typical tenon to fit my 50mm jaws. (This bowl is about 11 3/4" in diameter.) Again, you can see that I don't waste a lot of wood in the tenon length...

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Here's the bowl chucked up, ready for finish sanding. I sand all of the inside and the parts I can reasonably reach on the outside...

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After it's sanded, I reverse the bowl to trim off the tenon. I typically use a friction chuck. Sometimes it's a roughed-out bowl with rubber shelf liner over it to provide a bit of padding and grip, but in this case, I used the head to my vacuum chuck. I did not use the vacuum on this bowl though, because it's pretty thin and I didn't want to risk cracking it with the suction. This bowl is soft wood, so I didn't want to dent the inside from the tailstock pressure, so I used an extra 'donut' of neoprene wetsuit material as padding over the chuck.

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Using the tailstock with moderate pressure, I hold the bowl in place...

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I start whittling down the tenon with a 3/8" shallow detail gouge. At this point, I also define the depression for the recessed foot. Since this bowl is thin, I didn't go very deep. Most of the time, the recess is a bit more pronounced. This is also the time when I finish sand the bottom of the piece, except for the foot...

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I work the tenon down to a cone, and take light cuts until I cut through it, being careful to not knock the cone out when the cut goes through. This one actually broke before I could cut it through, but as soon as I saw it give way, I stopped the lathe...

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Since this nub broke off a little ragged, I trimmed it up a bit with a sharp bench chisel.

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A bit of power sanding with the 2" ROS (although a 2" disk on a drill will do the same). Often, my foot is smaller than the sanding disk, so I'll tilt the sander a bit and just use the outer edge of the disk instead of trying to set it flat on the foot...

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Sanding's done, and it's ready for signing and dating with the woodburning pens...

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I use virtually the same process on hollow forms. :thumb:
 
Vaughn...........that is a great step by step on how to do the bottoms but it leaves me with a couple questions. First, as far as the bowls go I understand how you finish off the bottoms.

On vessels if you look at pictures 1-4 above, I end up with a tennon and can reverse after drying easy enough using the mandrel (or other method). The issue for me is to create enough space to be able to get in there to sand the bottom to finish prior to taking the tenon down real small or cutting it off. Which then i understand you can use a 2" disk to sand the nub area. I supose i can turn the whole tenon down like you did in the pictures if that is what you are referring to that you do ........

Other issue is that the tennon can be small which would make sanding with a 2" disk encompass the entire bottom as I have turned some small vessels where that is a issue.

maybe im just not understanding the whole thing...........thanks
 
...On vessels if you look at pictures 1-4 above, I end up with a tennon and can reverse after drying easy enough using the mandrel (or other method). The issue for me is to create enough space to be able to get in there to sand the bottom to finish prior to taking the tenon down real small or cutting it off. Which then i understand you can use a 2" disk to sand the nub area. I supose i can turn the whole tenon down like you did in the pictures if that is what you are referring to that you do...

After I've turned the tenon down to about 1/2" diameter, but before I turn it into a cone, I'll often just use a small piece of 80 grit to sand the part of the foot that I can reach. I do this by hand, with the lathe running. I just try to get rid of the major tool marks. The finish sanding will happen after it's off the lathe. I also try to get as smooth of cuts as possible with the detail gouge to cut down on the amount of sanding necessary. If I have any fine details in the foot - like beads or other decoration - I'll generally sand through 220 or 320 grit the same way, still leaving the center (where the remaining tenon is) un-sanded until it's parted off. Once the tenon is gone, I do the rest of the sanding off the lathe. On a lot of pieces I could use the vacuum chuck, but more and more I just do it this way to save the time of hooking the pump up. About the only time I use the vacuum chuck lately is when I have a piece with beads or other details on the bottom, and I want to have better access for sanding those details. For the "smooth concave spot" foot that I usually put on a piece though, I get by fine without the vacuum.

...Other issue is that the tennon can be small which would make sanding with a 2" disk encompass the entire bottom as I have turned some small vessels where that is a issue...

I run into that a lot, because a lot of my feet are smaller than the disks I use. (I'm using the 2 3/8" disks from Vince's Wood-N-Wonders.) To get around that, I tilt the sander slightly so only the outer edge of the disk (maybe 1/4" to 1/2" wide) is making contact with the wood. You have to sand carefully, and move the sander constantly and evenly to avoid sanding deeper in some spots than others, but with a bit of practice, it's pretty easy.

Does that help explain it a bit better?
 
comment back to Vaughn

sorry for the delay but work gets in the way of my fun.......lol

Vaughn............yes I understand better now.....on the bowl it looks like you rechucked it after drying and trued up the foot. Then mounted and sanded - then reversed the bowl (friction chuck) and turned down the foot to a nub - im guessing you also sanded to finish as much as you can prior to parting off - then cut the nub and finish sanded that area............On a bowl like in your picture I can see how this is a great way to finish off the bottom and any details prior to parting it off totally.................

On a vessel - the nub would have to be a long one between the tenon and the base of the vessel to be able to get in there with your fingers and sand it by hand (prior to parting it off).........I use a mandrel (see above) and with moderate pressure turning the foot true flat can be done but to sand it down i would have to make the nub (tenon between the foot and base) longer to sand ........is this what you are saying when doing a vessel?
 
Dan, Please excuse me if I'm incorrect or missing the point, but I believe your problem is that you're trying to level the entire base of your turning. Every turner I know undercuts the base of any turning that is designed to sit on a base, be at a bowl, hollow form or whatever, so that you are only concerned with leveling a narrow area on the outer portion of the base. Even a base that looks flat will be slightly undercut. Every dish, bowl, or plate in our kitchen is made this way. I'll bet yours are made the same way.

I always finish the area that the vessel is going to sit on to completion on the lathe. Actually, I finish as much as possible of the bottom on the lathe. There are a multitude of ways to re-chuck your work to finish the bottom. If you have that small area where you parted off, to finish off the lathe, and it's a small base forget the power sander and do it by hand. Keep your sanding away from the area you leveled for the vessel to sit on.

I sometimes turn green wood vessels to completion and have them warp in drying so that they no longer sit flat.
If this bothers me I tape sandpaper to a flat surface and flatten the base by rubbing it on the sandpaper.

I hope this helps a bit.

George
 

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...On a vessel - the nub would have to be a long one between the tenon and the base of the vessel to be able to get in there with your fingers and sand it by hand (prior to parting it off).........I use a mandrel (see above) and with moderate pressure turning the foot true flat can be done but to sand it down i would have to make the nub (tenon between the foot and base) longer to sand ........is this what you are saying when doing a vessel?

Dan, the tenons on my hollow vessels are the same as the tenons on my bowls. I'd say 95% of the time I'm using the 50mm jaws, and the tenon sticks out only about 1/2" from the bottom of the vessel. If I want a final foot smaller than the 50mm tenon, I do the final outside shaping when I turn away the tenon. The pics I posted earlier could be either a bowl or hollow form.
 
George-Vaughn................Yes you are right I have been trying to level the entire bottom by using a 3' sanding disc on my drill press and it works fairly well, other times I try other ways of completing a foot just to see how it works out......I find some can be very difficult to complete while others can be simple.
George-----I saw your pictures that you posted and I have slightly undercut but I like how you did yours.

In speaking about small vessels and the foot I usually leave a good amount of waste wood so I can make a longer tennon or nub for completing later after drying.......I will usually turn green to finish on vessels except sanding..... and finishing the foot. Sometimes ill sand to 100 and oil soak or play with other methods of drying etc.......I do have to keep away from the leveled area though that I see im doing wrong at times

I have Bill Grumbines video and i see he used sandpaper glued to a scrap pc of wood for sanding level.....have not tried it yet but I will

I will try to post this evening the other foot designs I have made






If this bothers me I tape sandpaper to a flat surface and flatten the base by rubbing it on the sandpaper.
 
Ok had about 3-4 hrs free today and off work and cut up some wood a neighbor gave me - I really do not have room for it but i took some limbs that were cut and sealed the ends with anchor seal and put them under my press. See Picture #1 -Im sure ill loose some but I could not say no to free wood.....

Pictures 2-10 show a few of my projects in different phases of finishing to show the foot/base of the turning. I leave a good size tennon alot of times because what is left i leave in the chuck after cutting off the vessel i use right away to make lids/finials.

I favor making tennons and using compression over expansion - Pictures 1 & 2 are smaller vessels that i have difficulty with the foot because of the small area to work in prior to cutting it off - so this next time im going to try your suggestions about finishing the foot up to a nub prior to parting off and then just sand the nub area.
I use either super nova chuck jaws or a smaller set of spigot jaws for all my vessels - tennon size is 1/2 to 3/4" I guess im not sure as I make them the same each time using my Ci1 as a thickness gauge because it fast and works well for me.

George-Vaughn - I turn the vessel to finish but leave the bottom a bit thicker because i anticipate the warping will occur - the thicker bottom leaves me stock when I reverse it to part it so i can relevel the foot one more time before parting off - at that point i can also sand to completion like you said and make the foot a bit concave which im going to try out.......

Picture#5 is a different hollow form as it has a narrow neck and fat bottom - the hard part was the hollowing of the bottom portion - alot of stopping and blowing out chips which was a real pain..............now drying and picture 6 is the bottom
 

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