Laquer spray for turnings

The last time I bought a can of Laquer was from a online vendor and I purchased Behlan's Gloss Laquer. Currently, I am waiting on my hydraulic hose to arrive so I can complete my spraying system and hook everything up.

In the meantime I thought I would pick up a can of Laquer so I have it when I need it. To my suprise neither HD or Lowes carries Laquer in quarts or gallons. The store paint guy told me that they do not carry it because of the VOC laws in california make it to difficult for retailers to be able to carry it............Did not make alot of sense to me because Sherwinn Williamns and Tru-Tone both carry canned laquer (only one brand at each store) There seems to be very few paint stores that carry canned laquer. The salesman at Tru-Tone told me that even then it has to have a lower VOC in order to carry and sell it in California. Tru-Tone only Carries Mohawk brand but does carry it in satin,semi and gloss and only in gallon cans.

So I thought I would try out the Mohawk brand because it has great reviews and sprays nicely with little thinning............so I read......... Ok so When talking to the guy at Tru-Tone he became anoyed when I said I usually cut it 50/50 with laquer thinner for sealing then when filled to my satisfaction I was cutting it with 1/4 laquer thinner for spraying. So.......crazy me I asked him why he seemed bothered by my method..............He told me I was doing my finishing all wrong.

Ok, I thought...... and im no expert in finishing so ill bite.......So I asked how is it that im doing it wrong? He explained to me that by law I should not be cutting it at all with Laquer Thinner and I should be using Acetone instead and that it is the law...........and he sure was nice enough to point out he carried acetone to............also more expensive than laquer thinner.............what a nice guy............I told him thank you for the advice and ill just take the Laquer for now..........makes you wonder why HD and Lowes sell Laquer thinner in quarts and gallons both hugh?

He also said that all the pros are using a inline Devilbiss filter near there spray guns for added filtration and offered to sell me one at a discount (determined to sell me something else i guess).......At first I was going to pass on it but then thinking I could use it with the degraded regulator from HF until I get my setup going so I asked how much...........$6.00...........yeah ok ill take one.......
See Pic below........I hooked it up to my HF little one and it works well I guess for the price..............

Final Note on the Laquer - If I want higher grade laquer ill have to buy it mail order I guess and even then ill have to find a vendor that will ship to Calif........At some point I want to spray the insturment grade I was reading about but i guess ill have to have it smuggled in. Ohhhhh and for the record - In My Opinion Laquer thinner sprays easier and better than Acetone.

Im sure someone on here can explain the VOC thing better than I just did and I would be interested to know more because it could not be explained very well by anyone I asked other than its illegal.......

I'm not much help on this one, Dan. The only true lacquer I've sprayed has been the spraycan stuff. Fortunately, both Home Depot and Lowe's still carry it. I have sprayed USL from Target Coatings. (Now replaced by their EM6000 product.) It's a waterborne acrylic lacquer that will "burn in" to previous coats like a solvent-based lacquer.

Like you, I wasn't aware that lacquer thinner is not for thinning lacquer.

you have the pleasure of living in a state with one of the strictest environmental laws. The joke out here on the east coast when we read the warning lables that say "Warning: this product known to the state of California to cause reproductive harm to laboratory animals". so as long as you are not a laboratory animal in the state of California you can still have children..... OK Humor aside.
There is a link below explaining VOC's. The reason they are allowing acetone is that it has very low to no VOC's it is actually considered a "green" product as it leaves no residue when it evaporates. Not the case with lacquer thinner or any of the others.
As far as thinning for final spraying try reducing your lacqer thinner to 10 percent. That was all we ever needed when spraying precat lacquer.
The other solution would be to switch over to the new waterbornes like Vaughn is using. EM6000 is a nice product. Also, check out General Finishes waterborne products. Both companies will give you a very nice finish.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/voc.html

How much of the bad stuff evaporated into the atmosphere for each gallon you buy? If you use Nitrocellulose (solvent) lacquer, that may be 30% solids, 70% solvent, you are putting a lot into the air. If you are cutting to 50-50, you are adding 100% solvent, your solids drop to 15%, your bad stuff rises to 85%, but the total bad stuff per gallon of finish goes from 0.7 gallons to 1.7 gallons for the same amount of finish. That makes it illegal in California.

How bad is the bad stuff? It is NOT the ozone layer destroying refrigerants/CFC/halon/etc. It is closer to the exhaust gasses from a car. Not nice, but not much worse than driving around looking for the finish you need.

How good is Nitrocellulose lacquer? Like paint thinner, the product is mature, so brands hardly matter. Sure Deft can be brushed, but Deft is the same old stuff with a little retarder to make it dry enough slower that it can be brushed. Still can be sprayed, too, but it will dry a little slower. However, plain NC lacquer is NOT approved by the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association (KCMA) - too many current kitchen solvents will stain, soften, or mark it.

Catalyzed NC lacquer still has burn in, but over the week or two after it is sprayed the catalyst hardens (I believe the correct term is cross links) the lacquer, so it is less vulnerable to chemicals. Some say it is even impervious to finger nail polish remover (basically lacquer thinner) but I haven't tested that.

I loved using NC lacquer - over the years went through 50-100 gallons. But multiple friends on forums and locally kept pushing me to try water-based USL. Finally to shut them up, I did try it. Darn, I hate it when someone proves me wrong. Based on the number of empty 5 gallon cans around my shop, I appear to have passed 50 gallons of Target Coatings USL, or the current version, Emtech 6000. Why? Because it gives me a better finish easier. It is more expensive per gallon, but the percent solids are higher, so I need fewer gallons. It is ready to spray - no thinner, but you can thin it with a little water if you want a thinner sealer coat. It has full burn-in, so it doesn't matter whether you do multiple thin coats or fewer heavy coats - you will never get a witness line when rubbing the finish out. You don't have to sand between coats unless you are correcting your spraying (getting rid of a drool or a speck of dust). It is extremely easy to clean up - I have timed the clean-up of my spray guns between 45 and 90 seconds. The finish is KCMA approved - even better test results than catalyzed lacquer.

The only disadvantage that I have found is on the lathe (yup, it had to be there). With solvent lacquer, I can dip a rag and wipe on the turning, then speed up the lathe and let the heat of the rag force the evaporation of the solvent... all it takes to cure NC lacquer is evaporating the solvent - there is no chemical reaction. The water based lacquer burns in and cures with a chemical reaction that starts when the water is gone. So I don't use it as my "rub on" finish on the lathe.

When I have looked at the General Finishes Water based lacquer (even the professional line) it still recommends sanding between coats for adhesion, which means it does not have burn in. Sorry, no cigar.

See my web page on Lacquer at
www.solowoodworker.com/wood/lacquer.html

Charlie.......... I read your thread on Lacquer and it is very interesting article and would suggest that others on the forum read it (link at the bottom).

I will in the future try the Emtech 6000 but for now I have a gallon of the Mohawak WW gloss and a friend sending me some Campbell Lacquer and Deft gloss to try out in cans - I have not tried any of these yet because I have not had the time but I try the mohawk out and it works ok. Tried it on a small turning but I still favored the Behlens - possibly as you said it may have had more solids in it.
I like spraying and have been adding my own tone to it at times so I look forward to learning more about spraying - I like lacquer it drys fast and I can really like the look of it................

Thanks for any information and help..............very good articles you have...

Dan

Not a comment on lacquer but for most spraying I use this. Pressures up with your air compressor or co2 cartridge. Empty and clean out when done. I have been using the same one for 20+ years will all types of finishes. I do also have an hvlp for large jobs but haven’t used it in a couple of years.

Mike............I found one somewhat like what you have posted below.

http://www.speedysupply.biz/itemlevel.asp?productid=596&groupid=18&categoryid=4

I do not have one but I would think they could clog up easy on you and not sure how easy it would be to unplug - wondering if standard spray nozzles would fit.................anyway seems like a great idea for small projects etc......You have owned it along time so ill guess it must be easy to clean out if you plug it up................Dan

Dan,
I have not had a problem. Unless I am going to use it again soon I spray the finish back into the can then take the top off. Pour a couple of ounces of thinner in the can and recharge, shake, and spray into a small jar. Then put the nozzle in with the thinner.
You can just pull the nozzle and drop it into a small jar with thinner. That is what I do if I am fairly sure going to use it again within a week or so. Sounds like a lot of trouble but it only takes a couple of minutes.

Dan Mosley said:

Charlie.......... I read your thread on Lacquer and it is very interesting article and would suggest that others on the forum read it (link at the bottom).

I will in the future try the Emtech 6000 but for now I have a gallon of the Mohawak WW gloss and a friend sending me some Campbell Lacquer and Deft gloss to try out in cans - I have not tried any of these yet because I have not had the time but I try the mohawk out and it works ok. Tried it on a small turning but I still favored the Behlens - possibly as you said it may have had more solids in it.
I like spraying and have been adding my own tone to it at times so I look forward to learning more about spraying - I like lacquer it drys fast and I can really like the look of it................

Thanks for any information and help..............very good articles you have...

Dan

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I am not familiar with Mohawk WW - if it is solvent based, then I expect it is the same as Campbell and Deft (except Deft has a tiny amount of retarder to slow the dry time so it can also be brushed). I suspect Behlens is solvent based, so basically the same.

Bottom line, virtually no difference between brands of solvent lacquer, just as no difference between brands of paint thinner. Water base finishes are new technology so big difference between brands. I like Target Coatings, but always feel better with an alternative available. I haven't found any other brand that has "burn in" with their water based lacquer. I tried Fuhr, and got horrible results. I tried Minwax Polycrylic - it was okay but I won't buy more (I didn't dump it like I did the $60 can of Fuhr)

Charlie I used to use Target Coatings as well. Then I switched to General Finishes. Although I havent used their waterborne lacquer I have been using their poly porducts (the endurovar and enduro pigmented poly) Their instructions do say to sand between coats but I had been told by one of the reps that if there had been no contamination I could apply up to 3 coats in a day and not have to sand between them. I have done this on floors and stairs where there is heavy traffic and the surfaces have shown no signs of wear or adhesion issues.
Their poly cures through oxidation and the endurovar is an alkyd product in a waterbased emulsion.
I also noticed that their waterborne lacquer will not yellow which is a plus if you need a clear finish.
When I finish cabinetry I almost always sand between coats as I think you just get a better finish and look. It doesnt build up and start to look like plastic which I have found with Targets products.
this is just my experience with both companies that I wanted to share.

I think this is a interesting thread - im learning alot about lacquer and spraying so I appreciate the comments.

I have tomm off and im going to hopefully spend a good part of the day in the shop experimenting and turning.

I plan on finishing the hookup of my spray system and trying it out for the first time. I plan on using the Mohawk I bought to see how it sprays.

As far as lacquer sealer prior to applying the coats of lacquer ill just use the same lacquer cut 50-50 and go from there..........

Ill post more tomm but thanks to everybody..........

Rich Soby said:

Charlie I used to use Target Coatings as well. Then I switched to General Finishes. Although I havent used their waterborne lacquer I have been using their poly porducts (the endurovar and enduro pigmented poly) Their instructions do say to sand between coats but I had been told by one of the reps that if there had been no contamination I could apply up to 3 coats in a day and not have to sand between them. I have done this on floors and stairs where there is heavy traffic and the surfaces have shown no signs of wear or adhesion issues.
Their poly cures through oxidation and the endurovar is an alkyd product in a waterbased emulsion.
I also noticed that their waterborne lacquer will not yellow which is a plus if you need a clear finish.
When I finish cabinetry I almost always sand between coats as I think you just get a better finish and look. It doesnt build up and start to look like plastic which I have found with Targets products.
this is just my experience with both companies that I wanted to share.

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Rich, my general experience is that poly products (solvent and water based) generally dry quickly but harden over a day or more, so if you get back with additional coats in hours rather than days, adhesion is fine. If you wait too long, then you need to scratch sand to get proper adhesion. Poly is not my primary (or even secondary) finish, so give the appropriate weight to my comment.

My experience with a plastic appearance in Target finishes is when they work too well. The percent solids is higher in Target than in most finishes, so when it dries/cures you have more finish per coat, so it is easy to build too many coats and get the plastic look. My suggestion would be to try putting on less.

Target lacquer has full burn in, so the only reason to sand between coats is to ask forgiveness for less than perfect spraying. In general I put on a coat or two of sealer, sand to give a perfect smooth surface to build on, then put on build coats - a couple if I am "on my game" and can apply thick coats, more if I am using thin coats (doesn't matter since they will burn in anyway). Then a quick sanding (400 grit or finer) before the last coat.

General Lacquer does not have burn in, which is important to me, since I often rub out my finishes. If a finish doesn't have burn in, and you accidentally rub through a layer, you get a witness line which I have never been able to hide. With the burn in of lacquer, you only have one layer when you are done, so no witness lines.

I would love to find another water based lacquer with burn in - I am happy with Target EM6000 lacquer, but would feel better with a back-up plan.

Dan Mosley said:

...
As far as lacquer sealer prior to applying the coats of lacquer ill just use the same lacquer cut 50-50 and go from there..........
.......

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A sanding sealer does two things... one is to give a very smooth surface on which to build further coats, but a second (which I overlook too often) is to bring out the color of the wood.

Some of the finishes do fine on sealing but are less at popping the color. I have been using real (alcohol based) shellac lately as a sealer since even the blonde (colorless) seems to be excellent at popping color in most woods.

Charlie Plesums said:

Rich, my general experience is that poly products (solvent and water based) generally dry quickly but harden over a day or more, so if you get back with additional coats in hours rather than days, adhesion is fine. If you wait too long, then you need to scratch sand to get proper adhesion. Poly is not my primary (or even secondary) finish, so give the appropriate weight to my comment.

My experience with a plastic appearance in Target finishes is when they work too well. The percent solids is higher in Target than in most finishes, so when it dries/cures you have more finish per coat, so it is easy to build too many coats and get the plastic look. My suggestion would be to try putting on less.

Target lacquer has full burn in, so the only reason to sand between coats is to ask forgiveness for less than perfect spraying. In general I put on a coat or two of sealer, sand to give a perfect smooth surface to build on, then put on build coats - a couple if I am "on my game" and can apply thick coats, more if I am using thin coats (doesn't matter since they will burn in anyway). Then a quick sanding (400 grit or finer) before the last coat.

General Lacquer does not have burn in, which is important to me, since I often rub out my finishes. If a finish doesn't have burn in, and you accidentally rub through a layer, you get a witness line which I have never been able to hide. With the burn in of lacquer, you only have one layer when you are done, so no witness lines.

I would love to find another water based lacquer with burn in - I am happy with Target EM6000 lacquer, but would feel better with a back-up plan.

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Please dont misunderstand me Charlie I wasnt trying to argue the point or imply that you were wrong in anyway. Merely relaying what was said to me by one of the reps. I havent had experience with their wb lacquer and didnt know if the same applied to it as well as the poly That's all.
As far as the plastic look on the target that was only after 1 coat of their em1000 sealer and 2 coats of their conversion varnish. (my mistake it wasnt the em 6000 it was the em8000cv and I sanded between coats with 320. The em1000 has an almost instant build (and stinks to high heaven... wont use it again.. ick)
Anyway, no argument here and sorry for relaying the wrong product.

Rich Soby said:

Please dont misunderstand me Charlie I wasnt trying to argue the point or imply that you were wrong in anyway. Merely relaying what was said to me by one of the reps. I havent had experience with their wb lacquer and didnt know if the same applied to it as well as the poly That's all.
As far as the plastic look on the target that was only after 1 coat of their em1000 sealer and 2 coats of their conversion varnish. (my mistake it wasnt the em 6000 it was the em8000cv and I sanded between coats with 320. The em1000 has an almost instant build (and stinks to high heaven... wont use it again.. ick)
Anyway, no argument here and sorry for relaying the wrong product.

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My apologies if it seemed like I was arguing... just trying to share my experience too, and perhaps stimulate discussion (I am old but still trainable)

I have used some EM1000, which pops color almost as well as solvent shellac, so is a close second on my sanding sealer list. I sand it almost flush with the wood (so it only seals the grain, and doesn't start the build with a softer sealer coat), thinning if necessary to get a layer I am willing to almost sand off the surface. (I have tried Target's water-based Shellac and do NOT recommend it.)

I have had good luck with EM8000cv - Jeff Weiss suggested I try it after a client (an artist) needed a harder finish on his "art" table, and the client was thrilled. I am only a gallon or two into EM8000 (compared to over 50 gallons of EM6000), but didn't get a plastic-like finish. As a conversion varnish, rather than a lacquer, I did have to apply a heavy final coat to reduce the risk of breaking though the top layer with any rub-out.

I am a little ticked at General... I asked if their WB lacquer had burn in. The person I was talking to finally realized he needed to have an expert call. The expert spent a lot of time saying "of course it does" to every question, and trying to get me to buy in in barrel quantities. Then finally he asked "what is burn in?" I wanted to say, "It is what you just assured me that your finish does" but instead I just moved him from the expert list to the dumb salesman list. A finish that has burn in doesn't need sanding between layers, the General WB lacquer does need sanding.

Ive spoken with Jeff Weiss on several ocassions in the past. What originally made me switch over to General was that Target cant tint their products to dark colors. Only pastels or black.... This was from Jeff himself. General can, and I have had excellent results so far.
Did you talk to Tom Monahan at General? He is one of the engineers over there. tom@generalfinishes.com I just find it odd considering both people stated to me that the basics of waterborne forumlas are very similar.
He helped me out quite a bit when I had some problems with their finish (the problem was my fault not the finish, he saw my post on another forum and emailed me to offer assistance)
Anyway, not trying to sway you away from Target. Just trying to find out myself why one says one thing and the other something different if the technologies are so similar.....

An a side note. I had to spray onsite some cabinets for a client a couple of years ago. I was told by the rep that I could seal the cabinets with alchohol based bin then spray the target white tinted lacquer over them. Well, this I did and after 4 coats you could still see bleed through in areas from the dark brown original color. I want to jeff on this one and he told me that the rep had sold me the wrong product. I needed a white underbody then the tinted lacquer was only to be used as a top coat. All my coloring had to be done with the underbody.
Meanwhile my poor client has been living with her kitchen tented off with a poly wall, and me looking like an idiot because someone gave me some bad info.... Quite frustrating...

Ill add to the frustration - I spent the last two days playing around with some of my wood projects and my new spray setup using both a Badger and as Critter spray gun that I have. I started out by using the Mohawk WW gloss lacquer I purchased (waterborne). I used both my sprayers with it on different projects - not cut at all as it is thin enough out of the can to spray. My pressure was at 30 and I tested the spray pattern on scrap wood before going over to the project. I am not a expert on spraying but I can tell you this much .......
I would never buy this product again......I had both pc's sealed with Waterlox (2 coats - sat for a week steel wooled and cleaned)....first two coats very light and then building coats up to 6-7 coats and the finish still looked bad. The coats themselves looked good as far as the coating but the finish itself ....stinks.....like a dull water color and I failed to see any real gloss that I was used to with the Behlen's I had been using prior (which by the way sprayed a glass coat, took fewer coats 3-4, and looked great)....Ill steel wool one of them later and try to buff and see what happens but to me this was a waste of $34.00.......So, I was fairly mad about this sing as "the salesman" said it would produce a gloss shine far superior to any lacquer out there including the Behlens.............pfffffffft hot air...........

However, I did have a gallon of ML Campbell High Build Gloss (nitrocellulose) that I had not tried so I filled up a container and sprayed it on a few other projects. The difference is night and day and it comes ready to spray out of the can also but I did thin it just a little with lacquer thinner.
Either way, the ML Campbell is a better lacquer. I havent tried the can of Deft yet but I have taken pictures of what I mean because my explanation probably lacks.......

Pic 1 - bottom was sprayed with Mohawk - sides were sprayed with ML
Pic 2 - sides of same bowl
Pic 3 - ML
Pic 4 - ML
Pic 5 - ML
Pic 6 -Top Mohawk
Pic 7 - Top Mohawk
Pic 8 - Top half ML - bottom sanded and unfinished
Pic 9 - Same as 9

All the above are in process of being sprayed with a few more coats and will sit - sand - buff later on..........just to show you there are differences in lacquers..........another lesson learned...........

If you are going to use nitro then ml campbells is a great product. We used it all the time at one of the shops I worked at. Great product to work with. You should barely need to thin it with lacquer thinner. We used to put maybe a half a cup in a 5 gallon pail and it sprayed great. We were using an air assisted airless full pressure not hvlp.
Would lay down beautifully and sand easily. The only problems we would run into would be when it was real humid and we were spraying open pored woods like mahogany we would get the blushing. But it would always go away in a day or so. We never used any retarders or additives.

Just use caution with the stuff it likes to go boom if you dont have the correct set up!

I see what you mean about the gloss level. Almost like they put too much flattening agent in it.
Otherwise they came out great! Love the way the ml pops the grain!

Rich what do you mean by correct setup?? and the boom

I keep it in its can and sealed and only use a small amount in a glass jar when spraying.............you have me wondering...........


PS............added a few more with the ML lacquer ....see below.....- other thing to note is that the ML will disolve the powder analine dye and I can tone spray...........Yippie........Where as with the waterborne Mohawk it did not disolve well and clumped up................
first ones i made a bit tilted playing around......last two were another experiment where I soaked the wood and slow dried it - It twisted and warpped all over the place but turned out ok - its different anyway

nitrocellulose lacquer is highly flammable. You need proper ventilation if you are going to use it. No pilot lights, no open flames anywhere (gas water heater etc) explosion proof fan to exhaust the fumes if you are spraying in an enclosed space. Proper fire extinguishing equipment, a good respirator as the fumes will make your head sound like a bunch of lemmings jumping off a cliff if you breath too much of it. in other words it is nasty stuff and quite dangerous. When you spray you take that flammability and increase it several fold because now it is atomized and mixed with the air.
Not trying to scare you just be careful when using it and be aware of what around you could potentially ignite the vapors or atomized finish. Dont have an exposed light bulb that could accidentally be bumped and break when you are spraying switches, a non explosion proof fan in the stream, things like that.
Wasnt trying to scare you, you just need to be very careful when using any product like that, especially when spraying. See if you can get your hands on the MSDS for it.