Veneering question

Jeb Taylor

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Messages
518
Location
Decatur, Alabama
I'm working on some plans for a new entertainment center, built like a built in bookshelf for my house. I plan on making it out of walnut, but I can't find any local supply for walnut plywood. The whole thing will be base cabinets with bookshelves on top. I'm looking to veneer the top for the base cabinets, everything else with be rail/style paneled inside and out, probalby ship lap backs. I had a few questions about skill level/tools needed, I've never done any veneer.

Do you have to have a vacuum press to do something like this? The biggest piece will be about 2' x 6'. It seems like the methods I've read about so far are either the older hammer veneering or vaccuum bag, not sure which route to take.

What's the thickest veneer I can use? I've read 1/8" but no experience. Also is it acceptable to apply it thicker then plane the veneered piece down to under max veneer thickness?

Is this a project that a beginner can have a good shot at good results? It's for me, but this will be a big investment in time and not easily repaired.

Do I need to glue the edge of veneer strips together to keep them from splitting? I've read some articles that say yes, some that don't mention it. I'm not sure how to edge glue really thin veneer either.

Do I have to go cross grain of the top of the plywood? Due to the 6' length, I don't want to have to do two layers if I don't have to. Also would MDF be a better choice?
 
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Jeb this was my first veneering job I posted in this thread.http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13315 My largest piece just fit into a 9' long vacuum bag. You don't need a vacuum bag but it does make it easier. I'm not sure what what your talking about edge gluing sheet veneer ir veneer you re saw yourself. If its sheet veneer you can use blue painters tape or you can buy the tape made specifically for seaming sheet veneer together. If your re sawing your own then you edge glue them and I just use normal masking tape for that. When I did my kitchen I cut all my own veneer for the finished ends and laid it up on plywood with the grain running the same direction. I also made sure I re sawed some veneer for the back side either from the same material if it was going to be seen or from some junk wood if not. My veneer was 3/32" at it's thickest and haven't had a problem with it yet. I also used tight bond cold press glue for the veneering since when it dries it has no flex to it like regular yellow glue. Hope this helps. :wave:
 
Yeah, everything helps. I don't want to buy tools that I don't need for the job, or spend a lot of time on something that's going to split when the humidity changes.

So edge glue shop sawn veneers, but you don't have to glue the really thin stuff you buy? That makes sense. I just noticed some articles I read on the web didn't even mention it, while some talked about it.
 
Jeb, If you have a business you should be able to go right through these folks.

http://unitedplywoods.com/contact_us.html

If not, go down to staples or somewhere and have some business cards printed up. You already have a shop.
Then you can get yourself set up with a wholesaler for your plywoods as well as solid woods.

I have my carpentry business up here in the northeast and my shop for doing all my millwork and cabintry. I'm a one man show. All I did was talk to the reps up here, told them who I was and what I did. I get everything wholesale instead of having to go to the lumberyard and pay retail.
 
I'm familiar with them, they're about 10 miles from here. Unfortunately they wanted a tax Id which I don't have, and I ran into a good bit of problems getting one locally. That would be ideal, but I just couldn't come up with a legitimate reason to have a home business that didn't violate zoning or contractor license requirements.

I just priced vacuum pump systems though:eek::eek:
 
your tax id is your soc if your a sole proprietor.
that's all they care about usually. You can usually even go pick it up yourself if your neigbors dont want a lumber truck coming down the road.
My shop is in my basement, I wasnt required to have a store front or any signage, nothing like that. Told them I make the product in my home and deliver to my customers in their homes.

Anyway just a suggestion, you dont need to go through all the zoning rigamarole just to get set up with them. You shouldnt anyway...

unfortunately my supplier's closest branch to you is Virginia.... Otherwise I'd say you could use my account to get it.....:(
 
There's no reason to saw your own walnut veneer. Walnut veneer is pretty cheap and you can get it in face sawn, quarter sawn, and even some with figure (at a higher price).

Here's a web page on veneering a panel.

The easiest way to glue it is a vacuum bag, and I recognize the expense of getting set up to do that. Have you thought about what glue you'd use?

Mike
 
Your easiest way would be to use a paper backed veneer, and use a solvent base contact cement. You can apply it over any substrate, without a movement problem. It's available in 4'x8' sheets.

It's not a difficult application process, but if you decide to use that method, you can be talked through it easily.



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You need to be careful during the finishing process if you use contact cement and solvent based finishes. I've seen to many veneers get bubbles from the stain/ finish reactivating the contact cement because the finish was put on too heavy.
 
I haven't gotten to glue, not even sure on sawing my own veneer. I have this nice sketch of a 9' x 14' entertainment center that I want to build, and I'm trying to figure out how to build it atm. :D

Since I haven't found a good source of walnut plywood to date, I've been looking into veneering for a few days. I've looked around on your website before mike, and really like it btw. I hadn't seen the panel glue up though, just the tutorials section.

I like the idea of learning something new, but I am hesitant to drop $400 or so on a vacuum system. Still with a 2'x6' center section, that's an awful big/elaborate caul to clamp it down.

Is there any good veneer source online other than rockler/woodcraft/leevalley? I mighit just buy a little and experiment.
 
I haven't gotten to glue, not even sure on sawing my own veneer. I have this nice sketch of a 9' x 14' entertainment center that I want to build, and I'm trying to figure out how to build it atm. :D

Since I haven't found a good source of walnut plywood to date, I've been looking into veneering for a few days. I've looked around on your website before mike, and really like it btw. I hadn't seen the panel glue up though, just the tutorials section.

I like the idea of learning something new, but I am hesitant to drop $400 or so on a vacuum system. Still with a 2'x6' center section, that's an awful big/elaborate caul to clamp it down.

Is there any good veneer source online other than rockler/woodcraft/leevalley? I mighit just buy a little and experiment.
Certainly Wood is a good source of veneer. And Joe Woodworker is also good. But when you order, make sure you specify several things:
1. Whether you want face cut or quarter sawn. Personally, I prefer quarter sawn, but you're more likely to get sapwood on quarter sawn.
2. Specify how long you want the veneer. You want it longer than your panel but not so long that you waste a lot. But you're limited to some extent here. The veneer comes in some standard lengths and that's what they'll have. When you compute how much you need make sure to account for the waste.
3. Specify how wide you want the veneer. Generally, the wider the better because you won't have to make as many joints. On walnut, if you don't want sapwood (light colored wood) specify how much clear width you want - that is, the narrowest part without sapwood. Sometimes the sapwood is on the part you're going to trim off so think it through. And just as a note, trimming the edge of a stack of veneer (to get rid of sapwood, for example) is not a trivial task. You have to trim parallel to the other edge and STRAIGHT.
4. You can order veneer by specifying the square feet or the number of pieces of veneer. If you know the width and length of the veneer, it's usually best to order by the number of pieces. Order a couple of extra pieces. Winding up short is not a good thing.

For practice, look on eBay and see what's available. You can often find some good deals but the veneer may be short, or narrow, or there may only be a limited number of pieces.

Good Luck!

Mike
 
You need to be careful during the finishing process if you use contact cement and solvent based finishes. I've seen to many veneers get bubbles from the stain/ finish reactivating the contact cement because the finish was put on too heavy.
Absolutely, positively do not use contact cement. I cannot state this too strongly - do not use contact cement on raw (unbacked) veneer.

Mike
 
Your easiest way would be to use a paper backed veneer, and use a solvent base contact cement. You can apply it over any substrate, without a movement problem. It's available in 4'x8' sheets.

It's not a difficult application process, but if you decide to use that method, you can be talked through it easily.
Paper backed veneer has certain advantages - you don't need to make a bunch of joints, for example. The disadvantage is that the veneer (the wood) is extremely thin and you have to think about the edging so the paper doesn't show. You can sand through it fairly easily. You can use contact cement on paper backed veneer.

If the project is something you're going to keep for a long time, I'd recommend raw veneer (not backed). If it's a temporary thing, and you think you'll discard it within 15 years, go ahead and use paper backed veneer.

A way of attaching paper backed veneer is to use white glue and and an iron and iron the veneer on. Some people tell you to let the glue dry and the iron will reactivate it, but I just iron it while the glue is wet. The iron essentially drys the glue and attaches the veneer.

If you decide to go with paper backed, think about how to handle the edges.

Mike
 
Thanks for all the input, and especially the tip about the small veneer on ebay. I have bid on a small lot of raw walnut veneer for $20, and plan on experimenting with it to learn a bit. I'm sure I'll have more questions after that, but it seems like the best route to take.

If I have some sucess with small pieces clamped down and get comfortable with it, I might go with the vacuum bag route and raw veneer. If I can find some partial sheet paper backed, I will try that too.


how about durability of the finished product? It seems like the paper backed is a lot thinner, does it hold up as well as a thicker raw wood veneer? (not sure what you mean about keeping it a long time. Is it just age of the paper, or does it not hold up to wear and tear)
 
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Paper backed veneer can hold up well. I've had more problems with contact cement than the veneer. So my comment is based on the glue (contact cement) and the fact that you can probably never refinish it. If you try to sand it a second time, you have a strong chance of sanding through the veneer.

As far as thickness of the veneer, ignoring refinishing, all you need is enough thickness so that you can't see the substrate (or paper) underneath the veneer.

Paper backed veneer is mostly used in millwork applications (in my experience). For furniture, I'd recommend raw veneer.

Mike
 
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