SOMETHING FOR ALL MEMBERS and GUESTS

As much as I would like for us all to "just get along", I understand that we are a diverse group.

With grey areas around any rules there will be those who play the line and some who cross it.

I believe I can make all my points in a thread without reference to religion or politics, so I support a complete ban. No means no. Nothing direct, nothing implied, nothing humorous, no signatures, no kidding around, etc.

I fully support anyone who wishes to ask for moral support, and I hope they will post the request. We can respond in whatever method works for us. Sending thoughts or prayers does not have to be noted in a public post to be helpful. You can always respond with a PM if you feel the need.

In truth, I don't care much either way. I am not offended if references are made, and I don't care if I am not allowed to make references. I just overlook or don't read posts I don't want to. I don't understand why it is so important to some people, but that is just me. I also don't understand why some people like opera, or tomatoes, or running marathons - but it is no big deal to me.

I will support the Mods in whatever they choose in this matter. I am sure they will continue to do a great job.

Rick Prosser said:

As much as I would like for us all to "just get along", I understand that we are a diverse group.

With grey areas around any rules there will be those who play the line and some who cross it.

I believe I can make all my points in a thread without reference to religion or politics, so I support a complete ban. No means no. Nothing direct, nothing implied, nothing humorous, no signatures, no kidding around, etc.

I fully support anyone who wishes to ask for moral support, and I hope they will post the request. We can respond in whatever method works for us. Sending thoughts or prayers does not have to be noted in a public post to be helpful. You can always respond with a PM if you feel the need.

In truth, I don't care much either way. I am not offended if references are made, and I don't care if I am not allowed to make references. I just overlook or don't read posts I don't want to. I don't understand why it is so important to some people, but that is just me. I also don't understand why some people like opera, or tomatoes, or running marathons - but it is no big deal to me.

I will support the Mods in whatever they choose in this matter. I am sure they will continue to do a great job.

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I was in the middle of writing my thoughts on this and then my computer locked up...lost it all.

I was about to retype it but looked at the thread again. Glad I did, Rick you've written exactly how I feel about this topic. Thanks. (although I do like tomatoes )

And what I am saying is IF someone believes in a religion and asks for prayers when in a distressing personal situation, why should a friend or "family member" consider it offensive?

That member comes to this forum as a friend seeking moral support. Whether or not I believe or agree with his beliefs doesn't matter and I don't find it offensive. I want to show him concern as human being.

Frankly Mike, when those type of requests are made...that's why I use the statement "thoughts and prayers"....it's generic, non-denominational, shows concern to those who might follow a religion or might not practice a religion and the easiest method for me to show concern to anyone is a personal situation WITHOUT offending them or someone else reading the post.

I could care less what religion if any religion my friends may or may not practice. My friends are my friends, not because of their religion or lack there of and when they come to me in a moment of personal need, they should be able to express themselves in a manner with which they are comfortable.

If, however, they make it a habit of asking for prayers for everything that they may read about, see or hear about then it becomes a different story and that's why I underline "personal" in my initial sentence in this post.

It's just as easily argued that not being able to make these requests is, in fact, a religious statement and offensive.

I personally think it's making mountain out of a mole hill.

One is only offended by these types of statements if you allow yourself to be offended.

I think the moderators are doing a great job and have no problem with the Code of Conduct as written.

Tom

This is embarrassing. Apparently, everyone on this forum fits into one mold. Everyone on this forum is gray; with blonde hair exactly 3" long clean shaven with tan Dockers and a green polo shirt on. If you are over 18 years old, learn how to change the channel, move on, get over it or learn how to accept that people are individuals...not everyone is like you. If you are offended by religion, I'm offended that you could use some and don’t have any. If you’re offended by someone's signature (who they are) I'm offended that you want them to be like you. They may not even like you...but because they are an adult and given the fact that America is dead because of tolerance...they tolerate you. If you can't tolerate me...grow up or move on. If you don't want to pray for someone...don't do it and move on. If you don't like someone’s sig line, don’t read it and move on. Is it really so important on a global level that you are going to lose sleep over it? Really? Get a life and learn that everyone is not you and thankfully I'm not either. What is the point of "Off topic" if you can't go off topic? What would you define "Off topic" as? Read the ones you want and move on. Why on earth do you people continue to read things that offend you? Are you looking for a reason to be offended? Please please please...exercise some self control and a little personal fortitude and change the channel!!! What is wrong with you!!??

Mike Henderson said:

I think what people are saying is that if someone wants support, they should ask for it in a non-religious manner. Prayer is definitely religious and is not the only way others can give support. By asking for prayers, they are excluding people who do not pray (for whatever reasons).

Why not be inclusive and simply ask for support? The title of the post could be "Bad news - I need your support" instead of "Bad news - I need your prayers".

Mike

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Mike,

I understand the distinction you bring up in the person's choice of wording. For me, it is more about the person's intentions than their choice of words.

If a family member made a post "Bad news - I need your prayers", what are their intentions:

Are they saying: "You need to go and convert to my religion so you can pray for me. Something bad just happened and only by converting to my religion and offering prayers can you offer me any form of support."

Or are they saying: "Something bad just happened in my life and I'm looking for support from my family members. Because I happen to be religious and I'm under a bit of stress right now, I'm asking in a fashion that is simple and meaningful based on how I view the world. For me, that is asking for "prayers". But if you want to give me moral support in whatever fashion is appropriate for you and your view of the world, I'll happily accept it also."

It is my hope that all family members would fall into this second group instead of the first.

In these cases, I try to cut folks a bit of slack. They are stressed out because the mountain behind their house is smoking and they aren't sure if the hot red stuff is going to come in through their back door. They are worried and asking for support. The last thing they need is a moderator saying "Sorry, you didn't ask for support in the right way. You need to edit your post.".

And with that, I think I'm now up to $.10 of opinions on this topic.

Like others have said, I have no issue with the Code of Conduct as it stands. I was erratic in my attendance in the Forum for a period of time but am trying to get involved again. Thankfully, the Forum is still much the same as when I joined a few years ago, which is a tribute to the Moderators and Administrators.

I will touch on one thing that struck me a bit sideways. There are replies in this thread that have pushed the elimination of spiritual needs and references in signatures. I have no problem with any of the references I've seen. Those are a part of who that person is just as much as putting a link to your own website or other such item in a signature.

As to handling those who specifically ask for prayer, let it continue. To those who are offended, don't read the thread. Those who don't like the request for prayer remind me of the person who will complain about a TV show or a song on the radio being offensive; if you don't like it, tune to another channel! There are plenty of pure woodworking threads here!

Jim Burr said:

This is embarrassing. Apparently, everyone on this forum fits into one mold. Everyone on this forum is gray; with blonde hair exactly 3" long clean shaven with tan Dockers and a green polo shirt on. If you are over 18 years old, learn how to change the channel, move on, get over it or learn how to accept that people are individuals...not everyone is like you. If you are offended by religion, I'm offended that you could use some and don’t have any. If you’re offended by someone's signature (who they are) I'm offended that you want them to be like you. They may not even like you...but because they are an adult and given the fact that America is dead because of tolerance...they tolerate you. If you can't tolerate me...grow up or move on. If you don't want to pray for someone...don't do it and move on. If you don't like someone’s sig line, don’t read it and move on. Is it really so important on a global level that you are going to lose sleep over it? Really? Get a life and learn that everyone is not you and thankfully I'm not either. What is the point of "Off topic" if you can't go off topic? What would you define "Off topic" as? Read the ones you want and move on. Why on earth do you people continue to read things that offend you? Are you looking for a reason to be offended? Please please please...exercise some self control and a little personal fortitude and change the channel!!! What is wrong with you!!??

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Jim thank you,this has been my whole point. The idea that someone is offended by someone's posting here is crazy. This is an open forum. I don't care what the subject is...someone is going to have a different view than you. I have seen posts here about hunting animals. I'm not a hunter...so I do not participate in those discussions. Some people feel that you should build with all hand tools vs power tools....if I don't want to be involved in those discussions.....I don't have to be. We do not have to respond to every post in this forum. If a subject is not comfortable for you....move on. To think that every posting has to meet your ideas of what is appropriate is absurd. Yes I do think that you should be allowed to post on any subject you like. Like I said before ....if you find yourself all alone in those posts....take a hint.

Jim Burr said:

This is embarrassing. Apparently, everyone on this forum fits into one mold. Everyone on this forum is gray; with blonde hair exactly 3" long clean shaven with tan Dockers and a green polo shirt on. If you are over 18 years old, learn how to change the channel, move on, get over it or learn how to accept that people are individuals...not everyone is like you. If you are offended by religion, I'm offended that you could use some and don’t have any. If you’re offended by someone's signature (who they are) I'm offended that you want them to be like you. They may not even like you...but because they are an adult and given the fact that America is dead because of tolerance...they tolerate you. If you can't tolerate me...grow up or move on. If you don't want to pray for someone...don't do it and move on. If you don't like someone’s sig line, don’t read it and move on. Is it really so important on a global level that you are going to lose sleep over it? Really? Get a life and learn that everyone is not you and thankfully I'm not either. What is the point of "Off topic" if you can't go off topic? What would you define "Off topic" as? Read the ones you want and move on. Why on earth do you people continue to read things that offend you? Are you looking for a reason to be offended? Please please please...exercise some self control and a little personal fortitude and change the channel!!! What is wrong with you!!??

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Tom Baugues said:

Jim thank you,this has been my whole point. The idea that someone is offended by someone's posting here is crazy. This is an open forum. I don't care what the subject is...someone is going to have a different view than you. I have seen posts here about hunting animals. I'm not a hunter...so I do not participate in those discussions. Some people feel that you should build with all hand tools vs power tools....if I don't want to be involved in those discussions.....I don't have to be. We do not have to respond to every post in this forum. If a subject is not comfortable for you....move on. To think that every posting has to meet your ideas of what is appropriate is absurd. Yes I do think that you should be allowed to post on any subject you like. Like I said before ....if you find yourself all alone in those posts....take a hint.

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Jim and Tom, I understand completely what you are saying. I agree with you that we all should be able to look past the posts and other verbage that we don't like and move on. I do that all the time here and on many other forums. In my view though, if the current CoC was created by, voted on and upheld by the members and it tells us not to refer to religion or politics, we shouldn't. I was a mod for awhile and I decided differently on many religious or political posts individually and probably came off as wishywashy (is that a word?) I believe that if we can change the CoC to be very specific it makes it black and white without any gray area it would be much easier to run the forum and also a better forum. Plus, there are lots of "off topic" things that can be posted and discussed instead of religion or politics.

Thanks to everyone putting in their views on this subject...that's whats make this forum so great if you ask me.

Matt Ducar said:

Mike,

Or are they saying: "Something bad just happened in my life and I'm looking for support from my family members. Because I happen to be religious and I'm under a bit of stress right now, I'm asking in a fashion that is simple and meaningful based on how I view the world. For me, that is asking for "prayers". But if you want to give me moral support in whatever fashion is appropriate for you and your view of the world, I'll happily accept it also."

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If that's what they're saying, my opinion is that's what they should say.

Asking for people's support, rather than prayers, allows each person to provide the kind of support they choose to. Some will offer prayers, others will offer kind thoughts, and others may offer something else.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to ask for moral support instead of prayers. Asking for prayers is just a way of injecting religion into the post.

Mike

Wow what an education these posts have been for me.

Life is really good in North America when one can have the luxury of being concerned by what gets or does not get posted with whatever words.

In most parts of the world people worry mostly about surviving each day.

No wonder gunfights were the order of the day in the wild west.

Can you imagine what happens when these subjects came up in a saloon back then. Oh boy offense must have meant see you in the street to face my colt 45.

What has happend to common sense. Why are people so easily offended these days that these kinds of discussions even need to take place.

Oh boy. Some days i feel the world has been turned on its head.


Here i thought you guys were all passionate about freedom of speech.

One could also say.......sorry I don't pray so I'll just wish you the best.

Mike I completely understand your point on this. I do not think you are wrong.
We..... however have different views. Thats OK! Thats a healthy environment, to have. That allows us to see and hear different points of view. Nothing wrong with that. I do think its wrong for one to suppress another persons views by saying that they cannot express our feelings by the words of our own choosing. I understand that those words make some uncomfortable. It is not those people that they are speaking to.
Although I prefer to speak English in this country...I understand that their are people who speak other languages. When they talk...I don't understand it......so I move on. I do not expect them to HAVE to change their lifestyle just because I exist.

If someone posts a joke and I think it's kinda screwy, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about the purity of building only with hand tools and I have a shop full of power tools, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about their golf game, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about a great fishing trip, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about buying a new, expensive car, I simply go to another thread.

A Family member asking for support in the form of prayer in a time of need should not be turned away.

Religous statements should not be allowed in signatures.

Religous statements in signatures is a constant thing. It appears in every post a person makes. You change your signature today, the signature in every post you have ever made here now says the same thing.

The COCs clearly state religion and politics are not allowable subjects for discussion. Placing a religious statement or comment in one's signature is making a religious statement. Having a religious conviction or belief does not give one license to ignore the COCs. If you can't abide by the COCs, why join?

Not a bother? Check my signature. Some will say it sacrilegious and offensive. Hey....this is the internet. Prove that I don't worship bubblegum.

I do, however, believe that in a moment of personal grief or personal distress someone should be able to ask for prayers. I think it's unreasonable and trivial to expect everyone to worry about offending members with wording in times of personal distress.

You alone can control whether or not you are offended by something. You control your attitude towards things. Nobody else does and neither does the COCs.


BTW...I'll change my signature later this evening. I only used this to make a point.

God
noun
1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3.
( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science . the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.

re•li•gion 
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Well, since the two have nothing in common, we are FREE to have signatures that are individual and unique to us. If you'll notice, the technical definition of both has nothing in common with each other. Since this nation was founded on that principle and some of us have and still serve in uniform to protect and serve that very notion...those of you that find it offensive are free to thank us for your ability to do so.

Rob Keeble said:

Here i thought you guys were all passionate about freedom of speech.

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In the United States we are guaranteed freedom of speech through the constitution. There are very few restrictions on freedom of speech.

We have a different situation here. We have an agreement by the members that we would have no religion in the forum. What we are discussing is "What does that mean?"

I'm in the camp that "no religion" means "no religion". What we see over and over is that people - usually religious people - want to carve out exceptions that allow them to express their religious beliefs.

Regarding asking for prayers - I do not see it as a hardship for people to ask for support instead of prayers. The people who respond can offer prayers, if they wish. What exactly is gained by allowing someone to specify "prayers" instead of "support"? The only thing I can see is that it is an expression of the poster's religious beliefs.

Mike

[It sure seems to me that some of the people responding here WANT to be able to express religious sentiments in the forum.]

Well Jim...you split hairs quite well but most of the preachers, pastors and priests with whom I have talked consider the worship of God in a formalized manner, a religion....and references to same would be considered a religious statement.

and now you are discussing religion which does violate the COCs.


The Moderators could find reason to delete your last post and this one...for violating the COCs.

I want to change course here for a moment and say that although I see no problem with someone having a signature that implies that they have a religious faith, I DO believe that the COC rules have the right to ban anyone here from holding a religious discussion. Making the statement that I'm a Christian is not a religious discussion. Quoting bible versus is!
I'm a very firm believer in free speech however, I don't come here to be preached to and I do not want to read it in this forum. If you want or need that...find another forum.


edit: Jim this was not directed at your last post...I was typing before you posted.

I don't see it as a hardship for someone to overlook a
friend or family member" asking for prayers during a time of personal distress.

I think it reflects a calloused attitude to expect someone to use specific words in their time of distress just in case someone else might find it offensive. The more humane thing would to be more concerned about the person in distress rather than someone who might be offended.

Only you can determine what offends you.

Only you can control how you react to something.

Ken Fitzgerald said:

I don't see it as a hardship for someone to overlook a
friend or family member" asking for prayers during a time of personal distress.

I think it reflects a calloused attitude to expect someone to use specific words in their time of distress just in case someone else might find it offensive. The more humane thing would to be more concerned about the person in distress rather than someone who might be offended.

Only you can determine what offends you.

Only you can control how you react to something.

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That depends upon whether you wish to keep the "no religion" or start carving out exceptions. Those people who wish to see religion expressed in the forum will be able to find all kind of reasons why their expression should be an exception and allowed, as you are doing now.

Mike

[If the person is so distraught that they can't remember to say "I need your support" the mods can change the word for them. I doubt if we'll have that may cases of severely distraught people.]