SOMETHING FOR ALL MEMBERS and GUESTS

Folks,
I truly appreciate the strong feelings of the members on both side of this issue.

But this discussion is heading in a direction that is only going to lead to further dissension among the members. Please, lets try and keep the conversation civil and within the CoC.

We may have to close this thread if we continue to go in this direction.
 
If someone posts a joke and I think it's kinda screwy, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about the purity of building only with hand tools and I have a shop full of power tools, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about their golf game, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about a great fishing trip, I simply go to another thread.

If someone posts about buying a new, expensive car, I simply go to another thread.

A Family member asking for support in the form of prayer in a time of need should not be turned away.

Bingo......I:E. If it offends you that much......click ignore and move on. Or take the family out of Family Woodworking and rename the site Politically Correct Woodworking. It is really a sad day when the world has to bow to the demands of a few.

This just seems so frivilous as compared to how to get the best edge on a skew, or what is the best product to use for a good gloss. I mean is that what this forum is about?

I am done...thanks
 
Folks,
I truly appreciate the strong feelings of the members on both side of this issue.

But this discussion is heading in a direction that is only going to lead to further dissension among the members. Please, lets try and keep the conversation civil and within the CoC.

We may have to close this thread if we continue to go in this direction.
Which is the reason why we have the "no religion or politics" rule.

Mike
 
I don't see it as a hardship for someone to overlook a
friend or family member" asking for prayers during a time of personal distress.

I think it reflects a calloused attitude to expect someone to use specific words in their time of distress just in case someone else might find it offensive. The more humane thing would to be more concerned about the person in distress rather than someone who might be offended.

Only you can determine what offends you.

Only you can control how you react to something.

Ken, I disagree. If we make this exception to 'no religion', soon we will be asked to make other exceptions.
 
I don't see it as a hardship for someone to overlook a
friend or family member" asking for prayers during a time of personal distress.

I think it reflects a calloused attitude to expect someone to use specific words in their time of distress just in case someone else might find it offensive. The more humane thing would to be more concerned about the person in distress rather than someone who might be offended.

Only you can determine what offends you.

Only you can control how you react to something.

And that is the crux of this whole discussion. Click ignore and move on! I know you guys know how to use the ignore button...

What should be done is leave the CoC alone. If someone complains about a post...let the mods delete it....and then post the name of the person who complained in it's place. In big size 42 letters.


This way when someone wants some comfort from his "family"....they can post...."I need some help with a problem....Send prayers.....Except for you Tom, Dick and Harry."That will end this problem in a New York minute.

Whew!
 
My comment was directed at all of the posts Mike not just the ones in favor of allowing some thoughtful prayer requests.
My comment was not directed at any set of comments, but was a comment that discussions of politics or religion generally wind up as disagreements, even when one position supports "thoughtful prayer requests". Please note that the alternate position is for "thoughtful support requests".

Mike
 
My comment was not directed at any set of comments, but was a comment that discussions of politics or religion generally wind up as disagreements, even when one position supports "thoughtful prayer requests". Please note that the alternate position is for "thoughtful support requests".

Mike

Or when conversations about Lathe chucks get 10 different answers....or when a thread is started on types of finish.....4 guys all disagree. Here is what I do....I see what is everyones opinion and I make my own mind about it.

Not everyone is interested in celebrating diversity and the knowledge and wisdom it brings....whether it is religion, politics, or woodworking
 
Ken...you misunderstand. I didn't "talk" about either one...I simply provided a definition for educational purposes. Your stating you had talked to Clergy may in itself violate your very wish that you oppose so deeply.
Mike, you may complain about "us" but to be blunt...if in an "off topic" forum wish to ask for prayer for, maybe my cancer surgeries...please don’t pray for me...feel free to exercise some educated contemplation and send me some nice thoughts. Then please feel free to be offended about your tax dollars being used for illegal alien education or oil company profits...something that really matters and can make a difference...not the obviously pointless ranting of someone who has, and is proud of the fact, provided you that freedom. You really have nothing better to champion for? Nothing in the world that really matters to a lot of people? Homeless work? Food for a Food bank...anything that really matters??
Maybe that should be the topic...what we can do as an educated group to make our particular part of the world better...in a "It really matters" fashion.
 
I for one think the mods and adminstration do an excellent job!

I come to this site daily for the wood working wisdom that is so plentiful at this forum. That said, I have absolutely no problem with religion and or politics being talked about in the forum. If I don't like the way a thread is going I simply DON'T READ IT.

I recommend leaving it as is.

The mods and admin are in charge if they say stop a discussion then STOP IT. If you feel slighted because you think you have been treated unfairly then GET OVER IT. We as a culture spend way too much time worrying about offending someone AND in being offended. Take a valium and enjoy life a little more;-)

Jack
 
Jim....I suggest you reread my posts without any preconceived bias. Just in case, I will simplify my opinion.

I don't believe politics or religion should be discussed.

I believe the one exception to the rule should be a humanitarian exception when someone is asking for moral support in times of distress. They should be able to ask for support in a manner with which they are comfortable and not have to worry about wording.

It's my belief that those who in their signatures reference God, and/or bibilical quotes are IMHO making "in your face" religious statements that violate the COCs because they are statements. They appear in every post they have made or make and are a constant violation of the COCs. When you join the site, being religious or having religion doesn't give you license to ignore the COCs.If you feel you must make religious statements or comments, then don't join.

Conversely, if you feel someone asking for prayer offends you, why would one return to this site if it's allowed?

Religion and politics should be checked at the door with the one exception I described. That is just my humble opinion.

We are here to discuss woodworking and maybe make some friends.

You split fine hairs .I grant you the right to your opinion and demand the right to have mine.
 
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That said, I have absolutely no problem with religion and or politics being talked about in the forum. If I don't like the way a thread is going I simply DON'T READ IT.

Jack
Pardon me for quoting your post - many others have made the same point. I'm quoting it so that people will know what I'm addressing.

First of all, we all agreed that politics and religion would not be discussed in this forum. What some of you seem to want to do is allow religion to be discussed (such as when someone asks for prayers) and tell other people who object to it that they should just ignore it. That argument is specious and is selective enforcement of the rules of the forum.

If religion is acceptable as a subject matter in a posting, we should drop the "no religion" prohibition and simply allow discussion of religious subjects.

But there's another aspect to this. Some of the people on this forum are not religious. When a posting has a religious subject - and especially when it asks for a religious response - those people are essentially excluded. We should work to be an inclusive forum rather than adopt policies that exclude.

The solution to this is to enforce the "no religion" prohibition and simply not allow posting about religion, and especially postings that request a religious response. The only change that's required for the "request for prayers" postings is that people request "support" rather than "prayers". And if they don't, the mods can make a one word change to the posting. This allows everyone to participate and to offer the kind of support that they are comfortable with.

My observation is that religious people often want to push their religiosity on other people, so they advocate for religious activities in secular surroundings. I think that characteristics is at work here.

That pretty much sums up my position.

Mike
 
...And with that, I think I'm now up to $.10 of opinions on this topic.

By my math, it's closer to $.20, but it's been well worth it. You raise good points, in my opinion.

...We should work to be an inclusive forum rather than adopt policies that exclude...

Since the purpose of this thread was largely to get a feel for the members' opinions I'm intentionally trying to stay out of the debate, but I did want to point out that certain aspects of this forum, by their very nature, are somewhat exclusive. Some flatworkers may not be interested in the turned work, some turners may not read threads about hand planes, etc. Granted, they are not excluded from any forums by policy, but in practice, they are.

In pointing that out, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your statement.

I will say, though, that I don't recall a "prayer request" thread that only asked for prayers...all the ones I can think of used phrases like "thoughts and prayers" or "prayers and good wishes". I wouldn't be surprised if there have been a few that were exclusively asking for prayers in the 24,000 or so threads we have in the database, but I don't remember any offhand.
 
Since the purpose of this thread was largely to get a feel for the members' opinions I'm intentionally trying to stay out of the debate, but I did want to point out that certain aspects of this forum, by their very nature, are somewhat exclusive. Some flatworkers may not be interested in the turned work, some turners may not read threads about hand planes, etc. Granted, they are not excluded from any forums by policy, but in practice, they are.
There's a difference between someone who is not interested in a subject, such as a turner who is not interested in flatwork, and a person who is interested in the subject matter but is put off by the request for a religious response.

Mike
 
There's a difference between someone who is not interested in a subject, such as a turner who is not interested in flatwork, and a person who is interested in the subject matter but is put off by the request for a religious response.

Mike

Agreed, but how often is there a request for a religious response that doesn't also include some type of similar "best wishes/good thoughts/positive vibes" request? The problem you're seeing with exclusivity just doesn't seem that prevalent to me.
 
In reading through this thread, it occurred to me that it has been years since I created an account on this forum ... and read the CoC that I agreed to at the time. That made me wonder how much of the discussion has been based on others' (perhaps faded) memories as well ... kinda like how some folks talk about rights, etc based on hearsay about a certain venerable document written in the late 18th century.

So, I went hunting. It took some effort to locate it (I looked through FAQs, etc) but I eventually found the CoC in a permanent Announcement at the top of the [Members Only - Forum Directions and Business] forum page.

The part of the CoC that relates to the topic of this thread is brief and "to the point". It goes like so:
This is the Code of Conduct ("CoC") we expect all members to follow:
  • [Several unrelated list items...]
  • No politics, no religion. If you even think it might be considered political or religious, it is. Please don’t post it. [Emphasis added]
  • [Several more unrelated list items]

OK. So ... I see:
  • No dichotomy between discussing and mentioning
  • No distinction between requests for and freewill offerings of prayers, etc
  • No explicit mention of proselyting or scriptural signatures
I think it's wonderfully clear ... If you even think it might be considered political or religious, it is. Please don’t post it.

What's to keep us from abiding by what we agreed to? I can only think of 3 things:
  1. Ignorance (we never read the CoC, or didn't understand it or forgot)
  2. We have a lapse of judgment
  3. We willfully cross the line

In the first two cases, if our gentle but firm Mods come long and (re?)educate us about the rules, we would probably be humble and apologetic, and try not to let it happen again. The third case is the sticky one.

The CoC isn't laid out in dictatorial fashion. It doesn't say, "If you cross the line, the establishment will hunt you down and...." What it does say (later on) is:
The administrators and moderators of Family Woodworking reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for violations of the forum rules as determined by the Moderators.

We all agreed to that, too.

Some might say, "Cool. So I can write whatever I want and leave it up to the Mods to catch me." Hmmmm.... A wise leader once said, "I teach the people correct principles, and let them govern themselves." There's only one way that kind of system can work, and that's if each individual abides by the governing principles.

I consider myself an actively religious person. But that aspect of my self is overshadowed in this community by the desire to do what I said I would do when I joined. If the CoC is changed, I'll review it and re-evaluate my participation.

Meanwhile ... I'm here for the woodworking, and a measure of camaraderie, so I'll go back to the more conventional forum areas now that I've said my piece. :wave:
 
The part of the CoC that relates to the topic of this thread is brief and "to the point". It goes like so:
This is the Code of Conduct ("CoC") we expect all members to follow:
  • [Several unrelated list items...]
  • No politics, no religion. If you even think it might be considered political or religious, it is. Please don’t post it. [Emphasis added]
  • [Several more unrelated list items]
I think it's wonderfully clear ... If you even think it might be considered political or religious, it is. Please don’t post it.

What's to keep us from abiding by what we agreed to? I can only think of 3 things:
  1. Ignorance (we never read the CoC, or didn't understand it or forgot)
  2. We have a lapse of judgment
  3. We willfully cross the line

In the first two cases, if our gentle but firm Mods come long and (re?)educate us about the rules, we would probably be humble and apologetic, and try not to let it happen again. The third case is the sticky one.

The CoC isn't laid out in dictatorial fashion. It doesn't say, "If you cross the line, the establishment will hunt you down and...." What it does say (later on) is:
The administrators and moderators of Family Woodworking reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for violations of the forum rules as determined by the Moderators.
We all agreed to that, too.

Some might say, "Cool. So I can write whatever I want and leave it up to the Mods to catch me." Hmmmm.... A wise leader once said, "I teach the people correct principles, and let them govern themselves." There's only one way that kind of system can work, and that's if each individual abides by the governing principles.

I consider myself an actively religious person. But that aspect of my self is overshadowed in this community by the desire to do what I said I would do when I joined. If the CoC is changed, I'll review it and re-evaluate my participation.

Meanwhile ... I'm here for the woodworking, and a measure of camaraderie, so I'll go back to the more conventional forum areas now that I've said my piece. :wave:

well said. :thumb:

Kerry's post puts me in mind to bring up a couple of points which cut right to the chase:

Our Moderators respond to any post which is reported to them, their Job is to determine by vote whether or not that post/topic/etc... is or is not a violation of the CoC. This whole thread is in response to a desire for the Moderators to have some more defined guidelines on that oh so slippery concept.

Mods (current, former and future) your 'job' should you choose to/have chosen to/ did choose (got those out of order...) is to make that call. That's why you are in office, so to speak.
While In Office, you are the Forum's Super-ego (concsience) who reigns in the Id (the member who posts the questionable item) , while you may prefer to simply be the 'Ego' (average Member who is just making sawdust) (I was a psych major in college, and at the moment this seems an apt analogy). It may not always be Comfortable to be the Super-ego. There were many times when making that tough call was a hotly debated issue in the Mod lounge back when I was in office. And yet, that was the purpose Of the lounge and the moderator/admin team.
Jim cites:'
I believe that most, if not all mods, have had to make decisions based on the C of C that run contrary to their own personal feelings.

Some of the mods have lost sleep because of churning over the various aspects of the problem. '
... and I feel for those currently in office who are making their heartfelt decisions about this topic, but only to a point.

The 'cold cruel reality' of this whole situation is that even if we choose to define religion 'better' that is only going to make it slightly easier to say 'yay' or 'nay', their will still be violations of the CoC to deal with and you will still have to make those calls.

Kerry pointed out that the original text is pretty cut and dried:
I think it's wonderfully clear ... If you even think it might be considered political or religious, it is. Please don’t post it.

our Family nature inspires us to share our ups, our downs, our trials and our successes. That is part of what makes this such a great 'place' online. Collectively we're prone to share 'too much' sometimes, which is when the Moderators get to lose some sleep.

To sum up, we've allowed 'prayer' requests in the past, as those are what make us a community,we Care about our friends online, wherever in the World they happen to physically be... I for one would not change that 'gray area', or the wording as it stands now.

Mods, I've said it before, you do a great job, keep it up. However if you're going to be a Mod... you sometimes have to set aside your personal feelings and make a decision based upon the rules of the forum. That isn't always easy, but it Is what you are there for. The question cannot be 'do I agree with what they said', it is instead 'does this violate the CoC or not'.

Jim, I truly hate to say this, however sometimes the call is a hard one, and the fact that 'you' (collective you) lose sleep over the issue speaks volumes for the character of the individual Moderator. We are incredibly fortunate that you (both individual You and the entire Mod staff) are Men and Women who care about the forums and volunteer your time and efforts to keep them civil.
 
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