business question?

Larry in Michigan building for a client in Indiana?? Does distance add any complications or add to the cost? How long to install and will the area already be prepped?

yeah i thought about that part ted:) but i have a good place to stay not far from the destination of them:) the hospitality is sometimes pretty orny but the food is good:)
 
Larry.

In here we have a saying the reads " A taula com a germans i als negocis com estranys" which literally translated would be:

" At the table like brothers and at the bussiness like strangers" I think it resumes it all.

I completely agree with what Rob said. Make everything clear from the begining, and that will spare you either loosing a friend or loosing money or both.

If they don't like those formalities it means that they are trying to get the good deal of their life. I always find it funny how people do not hesitate certain amount of money for a job, and sign as many papers as required but they will not do the same if you are their friend.
 
Larry, I got talked into building a new pole barn, adding to an existing barn, and fixing a third barn for my brother-in-law last summer. I happened to be up in his neck of the woods for a week of (theoretical) fishing with my son when they experienced a floor collapse in their main barn. He had been getting some quotes for the work and they were rather high so in discussion I agreed to look into a price quote and came in a little over half of any other quotes.

The point is there was a quote, and an agreement on how the work was to be done. It took me 5 trips of over 1000 miles each time to get the work done. I was able to hire 2 of my sons who needed money for college and with the small profits left over I was able to build a lean-to on my own barn.

It sure helped that I can trust my brother-in-law to pay his bills. If I had even the faintest whiff of distrust I would have spelled everything out on paper.
 
My daughter just knocked off the mirror on her jeep.
She drives like shes driving bumper cars it seems.
When I got my buddy to fix the mirror in the pouring rain the other night, my daughter mentioned she doesnt like the way the brakes feel.
Translated-daddy, even though I make more money then you do these days, I still dont have a nickel to my name so could you bring my car to the mechanic and have my brakes checked?

so I did, only because shes my daughter and shes related to me by blood, but when I got there, the owner who knows I woodwork, asked me to build him a bathroom vanity. Not a big job, he just didnt want to buy borg particle board crap.

Im just not sure some people understand, big job or small job, I still have to get the wood they want if I dont have it, mill it, cut it, and then build and finish it. Even a small vanity like that will take me a few days to mill and build, then comes finish.
Thats 25-30 hours worth of time.
Is he going to pay me the same rate they have posted for labor in his shop?
Is he wiling to pay me HALF the rate he has posted in his shop?
Is he willing to pay me ONE Third of the rate he has posted in his shop?
(I know its just a sign, but he wants to be clear when new customers come in I guess)
One sheet of cabinet quality veneered plywood for the sides is 120 dollars.
Hardwoods for the doors and frame is another 30 dollars.
I realized hes not going to pay me 1000 plus dollars for a small cabinet when the borg sells a decent looking one for 175.00

I made all kind of excuses. I just didnt want to deal with his disbelief when I told him what I think my time is worth. Delusional or not, my time to me is not worth 10 dollars or even 20 dollars an hour.

a few nights later, when I was out to dinner with my family for my nieces birthday, my other niece asked me to build her a coffee table for her new apt at college for next year. She said use all scrap wood. Its for a college apt, so dont use any expensive wood. She gets away with it for 2 reasons. First, shes my niece and I love her, second because shes 19 and most 19 y/o's are in their own world anyway.

So I told her ofcourse Id build it for her(shes the one I made the full size bed for, her sister the vanity and the jewelry box)

Besides my kids or my nieces, I just cant deal with people thinking Im off the wall delusional with myself because I want to be paid for my time, even if my work is amateur.
95% of the people in the world dont have a clue what it takes to hand make anything these days. Most are used to going to big chain stores and buying ready made stuff.

The people I assist or help with things, and dont ask for money, they give me big fat gift cards as thankyous, even though I dont expect it.
They see the work I have to put in, even for a few built in shelves.

I dont think I will ever want to build anything for anyone unless they are totally aware of what hand made custom stuff cost. Again, Im not a pro, but I can build a table that is close to flat and even.
(for my niece, I might just joint a bunch of 2x4s and glue them together and finish the table in one afternoon, let her stain and polyurethane it)

The only stuff Id be willing to do is if my cousin takes a booth next summer in some shows(shes into art), she wants me to make her some boards, and some fence toppers, shell paint them. That I might do for her.

ofcourse, after reading my post I realize that I am not a professional and probably shouldnt be making a response here.

like toni states, gotta make it either business or personal.
If its personal, you gotta expect all the nonsense family or friends will dish out and take it and just brush it off and not let it ruin a friendship, and ofcourse, expect little or no profit.
If its business, you gotta expect all the nonsense customers will dish out and take it and just brush it off and not let it ruin the relationship you have with the client, and ofcourse, expect little profit.
maybe ya cant win here.
 
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Now Larry, I think you got some good advice from the 'ole family.

To clarify my point.

Rule #1, Make sure there is clear understanding and a written document of the expected work. This is only for cases where you are selling goods or services. Spell out the expected expenses and and make it clear that any changes may incur further cost.
Sometimes this is enough information to dissuade the friend or relative. :D

For a paying job there is usually some understanding reached as to time frame of when completion is expected but I try to give myself some fudge factor there.

Rule # 2 make sure payment timetable is clearly spelled out so there is no surprises to either party.

In my recent barn construction job for my brother-in-law we agreed that he would pay for the main barn package plus other major purchases like the new barn floor beams and decking. I charged all other needed items to my business credit card and invoiced him when the project was completed. The credit bill was delayed a month because he had to do a major overhaul of his log truck engine and was tight for cash and this was fine by me because I knew he would be good for the charges. He had already paid for the labor.

Those are my 2 operating rules and so far it has worked well.
 
well this is still out, and i have asked for some answers and as of yet havnt got them:) thanks for the replys:):thumb:

its an individual thing.

IF youre not approaching it strictly as business, and would treat someone exactly the way you would a complete stranger in business, its a call only you can make.
Only you know what youre willing to give and take.

theres alot of nitty gritty stuff you have to sort out for yourself.

Its not a simple question that can be answered either a or b.
 
Larry,
knowing you as well as I know you in my heart that anything you would do would be first class so the quality of what you do is not in question. Where the pitfall lies is in defining the design and scope of the work as well as the cost and payment terms and time frame. Sure having a place to stay and a great host helps but as some have said business is business. You shouldn't take a loss to do the project that include time away from your own work so that needs to factored in. I think that if you can come up with a clear cut design as well as a fare price both of you can come away with a great product for the client and a great feeling of a job well done on your part but you need to do as much up front to define everything. I have found that problems arise when the clients expectation exceed the contractor definition of the job. Hope this helps and if you'd like to talk off line I hope you still have my phone number.
 
What I will do with a friend or depending on the circumstances family member is spell everything out. Many times they have no clue what is going to go into a project. For them I will list out everything. Show them the hard costs of the materials, why I prefer to use those materials over others. Where the "deal" comes in is I will show them I am not putting any markup on the materials and what I would have charged a stranger and what I am willing to "shave off" for them. Usually when the numbers are all listed out in detail whatever "deal" they were originally looking for becomes moot.
Now if it is a simple little project and I happen to have the materials on hand I may just build it and gift it to them as well. It really all depends on the size of the project and the hard costs involved.
A big project like a kitchen or a big set of built-ins. A "deal" would be if I could do it for a fair amount less than a GC or the "design studio'.
Maybe through a discount in labor. "Well Joe I charge X dollars an hour for my labor/shop time. For you I would be willing to do it for Y dollars an hour plus the cost of materials." Also, if the project is big enough I will sometimes enlist them to help. Keeping everything spelled out clearly is a big key. And usually after you have done one and had them involved in some way through the process. They see the value of your work, what you put into it. And the next time they don't ask for a "deal".
Good luck Larry. The "friends and family" side of things is always a challenge.
 
i didnt clarify my last post ,, i meant i have asked the purposed customers some questions and am waitng for answers to them, not that i didnt get answers here, i did and thanks to all of you for them..:thumb::thumb:
 
I almost never charge family like Stu. The exception was the recent barn project because it would have incurred considerable expense for myself that I couldn't afford. Plus the job site is 500 miles away. The end result was a cost savings for my brother-in-law to the tune of around $10,000. I also was able to do things to make the new barns considerably more user friendly like spanning 2 openings with 24 ft. I-beams. The main thing is to keep the peace in the family and he is happy as a clam with the end result. Plus I got to spend 6 weeks up in God's country.:D

Normally, I do things for free or for barter among friends. It is a great thing to be able to make a few phone calls and get a crew over to re-roof a house, or build something. We have a system which requires that you feed the crew and be willing to help each other as needed. The IOU's aren't really tracked, it's just an informal agreement among friends. Besides, it's a blast to work together and all part of belonging to an extended family. One of the great benefits is that we share tools and equipment. When I needed to do some digging to fix the septic system one of my friends insisted that I not rent a backhoe and told me either "I drive his backhoe over or he would". 25 miles!! Of course he needed some welding and fixing up on the machine all of which I was glad to do. The simple rule with equipment is that if you break it, you fix or replace it. I've only had one issue with one person in 20 years, and a minor one which I choose to overlook.
 
For family it is free. Only exception if special materials are needed for my son I'll ask them to cover that cost. If delivery and installation are needed I don't charge because I know a nice dinner will be involved. Son is a good cook and I can count on a great steak.
 
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