New Kid on the block

Hi there Cousin Ken, been wonder'n what happened to you.

Haven't seen you in a coon's age.

Hi Frank, and to others who will read this....

Frank, I sent you a PM....

I read the thread you posted. From the responses in the thread, it appears that there's quite a need for a saw sharpener around here. I'm located in California. That's the main drawback for some people living on the other side of the big river. Cost to ship a saw to me both ways will often times cost more than I charge for sharpening. We old guys will sometimes be living far in the past when we think about what everything costs these days. My wife tells me to "get with the times". I remember when a postage stamp cost only 5 cents and gas was 23 cents a gallon. I've forgotten most everything else but I sure can remember that.

It's sometimes hard to get our minds around how much a saw made by our present day saw makers can cost. A large percentage of the old saws that can be found at flea markets, garage sales and estate sales can be pretty cheap in comparison even when you have to send them to someone like me to have them sharpened. To properly sharpen a saw yourself, there is always an initial investment in time and tools. I emphasize the word "properly" because there is a difference between making a saw feel sharp compared to a saw that will actually cut wood. Just buy a file at your local hardware store or buy one from one of the online tool stores and you will pay at least $5 plus shipping for just one file. One file might file 4 regular handsaws, maybe fewer than that, depending on condition of the saw. Different size files are used for different tooth size and count. So if you have a large ripper with 5PPI and a panel saw with 10PPI and a backsaw with 14PPI, you will need three different size files. A saw set that sets the teeth on a 5PPI ripper is different than a saw set for a 14PPI backsaw. So you need two saw sets for different type saws. These are just a few of the details that people do not talk about when saying how easy it is to file your own saws.

Saws should be filed to cut the type of wood you work with. Most woodworkers use hardwoods. A saw is filed and set accordingly. More set for soft woods and less set for hardwoods. How much set is too much and how much is too little?

Lots of variables involved with handsaws. Way too many to go into here in this forum. I guess the point to be made here is, we all have to "get with the times" when contemplating how much it actually cost us to be woodworkers. The cost of a good handsaw is just a small portion of the total cost. Just look around a shop that is well equipped and set up for doing serious woodworking. You will see thousands of dollars invested. All of that investment is useless if working with dull edge tools. As with chisels and planes, your saws must be kept sharp. If you have lots of different saws and you use them enough to make them dull, it might be a good investment in time and money to learn how to sharpen them. But if you only use your saws occasionally, the cost to have someone like me file them for you, the cost in comparison might be the more practical way to go.

Take care,
Marv

Thanks everybody for the warm welcome.

Take care,
Marv

Welcome Marv , I'm sure you can teach us some sharpening tips ......

Hi Marv, welcome! Can't wait to learn more about sharpening. Love that vise.

Hi Cynthia,

If any of you Family Folks have a specific saw sharpening question, I'll be glad to try to answer.

Hi Marv and welcome to the family.

I agree with all you have said re the effort involved in sharpening.

For me however its part of the journey.

Few years back i visited an old pioneer historic village, they have a woodshop there and i learnt all about the old days and the route an apprentice would take in a woodworking shop back then.

When a journeyman "graduated" back then, he would leave his teacher with having made his own tools. Doing this was part of the process of learning and understanding his tools would also reflect what kind of craftsman he was to be in the future.

So to me the discovery a few years ago of what a sharp edge meant was the start of a journey for me in woodworking. I see it as a challenge.

I started with a set of hand me down chisels that my Dad gave me from his time in the Navy in WW2. This was more of a father son rivalry because i dont believe he knew what sharp meant. After that i moved on to old planes and discovered the pleasures of a sharp well tuned old plane.

To date i have accumulated the many tools involved in sharpening a saw. As you said there are quiet a few. I have been studying many different writings on the subject and soon will get into the water and get my feet wet. I have acquired a few old saws but the single most important one i wish to get right is the gents saw my Dad handed down. This is another tool i would like to send him picks of having done it myself.

So soon i hope to be taking you up on your offer to answer questions.

A question i have right off the bat that bothers me is taking the marketing fluf out of the equation.

Here is my point. Surely if one is experienced such as yourself, and you take a el cheapo $10 gents hand saw equipped with stiffenere and you entirely remove the teeth. Then set to work plying your craft and skill and put some teeth on it and sharpen it properly, I see no reason that saw should not perform equally with another in its category. Granted the steel may not be the same quality as some, but surely that would only affect how long those teeth perform for same as say for a blade edge on a plane or chisel.

If that is the case the real issue then is merely establishing an ability to get a feel for the steel involved.

Can this be "felt" determined with a small file say by putting a nick in the back edge or somewhere where its not going to matter.?

Then, lets assume said really cheap saw has soft steel could one not harden it by say passing it through a mappgas burner and quenching it.

I can fully appreciate buying some of the tenon, back, dovetail, gents etc saws on the market but i wish to be able to establish what a good saw is and what its not, not just pay for a name.

Some are works of art and look superb on their own as a tool so how do you judge a saw to buy one. I am not a collector, can respect the overhead in a small family orientated tool maker like the Wenzloft saw guys but one still needs to be able to tell good from bad.

Look forward to seeing more of your tools and shop.

Can you show me what sets you use to do your work. So far i have a set i purchased but its way to big for the fine stuff and i need to get fine tooth set.

Hi Rob,

Regarding your Gents saw and the quality of the metal. As for heating the metal and quenching it, not a good idea. That process has to be done in a very controlled manner in order to prevent warping it beyond repair. The metal has already been hardened and tensioned to make it a certain hardness to allow it to be filed and bend the teeth when setting them without breaking them. Yes, some saw plates are softer than others, but the softer cheaper ones are not worth messing with as far as hardening them. Just buy another one. Or file it more often. Once you get the teeth filed correctly, from then on it's just a matter of a quick touch up to get them sharp again. After 4 or 5 touch-ups, you might have to reshape and refile them, depending on how careful you are when touching them up.

There are hundreds of different saw sets out in the wild. Some are ok and some aren't. I have settled on using a Stanley 42X. I have two of them. One is for the smaller teeth we usually see on backsaws with teeth from about 14PPI and smaller. The other one I use on the larger teeth. The one for smaller teeth, I have made the hammer narrower.

I bought a Somax one time because I read where so many people were using it. The one I got didn't bend the teeth correctly. I found that the anvil has a steeper angle than the 42X does. Some people have reported that the Somax anvil is not hard enough and can be dented which then damages the small teeth such as we often see on backsaws.

I would only retooth a saw such as your el-cheapo gents saw if I wanted a different number of points per inch. You don't have to file in completely new teeth to make it cut properly. The number of points per inch (PPI) is determined by what you will use the saw for. Those small saws are usually used for dovetails and small tenons and of course other small sawing operations for both ripping and crosscutting. For dovetail and tenon cheeks you want a rip saw because you are sawing end grain.

When you begin to file your gents saw, first determine what you will use it for. Do you want it to make rip cuts or crosscut cuts? If the teeth are small enough you can actually do crosscutting with rip teeth. 15PPI and smaller will crosscut pretty well, but not as smoothly as crosscut teeth. However as you go smaller in tooth size, when the teeth are small enough, there is no need to file them crosscut. For example, a saw with say, 16PPI and smaller will do just fine doing both crosscutting and ripping. With teeth that small, you will be doing relatively small work such as small boxes, jewelry boxes, etc.

Here is a picture of the Stanley 42X...




These saw sets show up on eBay on a regular basis. They will sell between $25 and $90 approx., depending on condition.

Thanks Marv for the feedback.