How do people demand so much for the work?

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I was reading Mike Henderson's posts about the Marquetry Course with Paul Schurch that he attended, and it got me thinking. In my opinion many of the members here are outstanding woodworkers. Mike's veneer/marquetry, Glenn's Greene and Greene, and Vaughn's turnings just to name a few that are outstanding! The quality of work that is displayed is as good or better than many of the big named woodworkers, yet I'm sure the price they demand is far below what the Maloof's of the world get. My question is what lets the "big dogs" ask and get the crazy prices that they do? Is it marketing, reputation, or just luck?
 
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...Is it marketing, reputation, or just luck?

Yes. Or at least that's my impression of how it works.

I saw the same thing in the music business. There are unknown players and singers out there who could knock your socks off, if only they could be heard. But for some reason, the fickle finger of fate points to a select few, who, regardless of talent, seem to make it to the top.
 
Marketing marketing and marketing. But they also have one other thing. They believe that what they are selling is worth that price. There is a great deal comes down to your own outlook in my view. If you dont think you worth or you dont think the piece is worth what you want you will undermine good marketing too.
 
Vaughn can probably relate to this example; why are there some musical groups or musicians that become super stars while some equally or even more talented folks end up playing the local club circuit for life? Luck occurs when opportunity stumbles into the prepared. A schoolmate of mine was doing the above and below the waterline ocean paintings for years when the guys who became so popular for it "suddenly" appeared. He makes a good living at it but, he's not a household name. Timing, public taste or chance encounter with the right 'someone' can make things happen. One of my favorites; why do people pay $350 for a pair of Oakley sunglasses that are worth about $5.
 
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I used to be a marketing exec before moving to where I am now. I agree with a lot of what has been said.
1. marketing
2. luck
3. talent

Choose 2 out of 3. I think it's also a matter of selling something that's "different" and having a niche. I think Vaughn's stuff is more like art--which has to be the hardest thing to become known for. LOML suggested Vaughn should hire the Shamwow guy to do an infomercial for him.
 
Another common misconception (at least in regards to artists) is that the ones who get high prices for their work are making a good living. The other day my boss was talking about a friend of his who is a well known and highly regarded abstract painter selling his paintings for tens of thousands of dollars. (and in some cases over $100K.) He still lives a meager existence in a loft studio in downtown LA, and has been like that for the 20 years or so Perry has known him. (Perry had a loft in the same building...he was also selling abstract paintings in the same price range. He got into the art installation business for something more steady.)

Rob, you and I went through the exercise a couple of years ago to see what it'd take to make a middle-class living as a woodturner. To gross $75K per year, one would have to sell over $1400 worth of product per week. And that's retail. The wholesale price would be considerably less. Plus, even if you had a reliable sales outlet that could generate that kind of sales volume, you'd still have to be able to produce $1400 worth of product per week. I can't make four $350 bowls or hollow forms every week of the year. Or on the other end of the scale, how many pens would need to be made and sold (wholesale) per week to maintain that kind of income? I'm guessing 10 to 20 per day, depending on material costs and markup.

I get the impression that the handful of woodturners who are indeed making a middle-class income are getting most of their money from demonstrations, books, and videos. There are guys like Mike Mahoney who are high-volume production bowl turners, but in his case, I'll still bet most of his income is from turning-related sales instead of from the turnings themselves. I also suspect many of these guys have wives who are also employed, and they can get things like medical insurance through them.
 
I agree totally.....marketing, marketing, marketing. And it's just not woodworkers either. It effects all areas of life. I guess it really is true that reputation (be it good or bad) is everything.
 
One of the things I can't understand is there are people sell turned pen on Etsy.com for $5.00, I can't buy the blank and kit for that price. People really need to price their work at a reasonable price and not undercut everyone else. Just my thoughts. :(
 
My son has always said that pricing is an implied or perceived value... I think he means that if you can make buyers think your work is better, greater, more attractive or what ever criteria you use, then you can command higher pricing...

A few years back I had a bowl from a piece of big leaf maple burl... it was an earlier attempt and in my opinion not one of my better pieces, but it was a beautiful piece of wood. The bowl was about 8" diameter x 4 or 5 inches deep... I had a price of $65 on it and was thinking it was a little high... the first customer in my booth that morning grabbed the bowl, and clutched it as she shopped around.... when she paid, her comment was: "You artists never price your pieces at what they should be.".... I took it to mean I had under priced the bowl....?? I try to keep that in mind now when I price my turnings.
 
I have long wondered that also. I believe part of the equation is location. You have to be where the money is. A big part of it is simply public perception that something is better just because a well known artist made it. I see pics of things made by Nakashima, especially his benches and tables. To me they look like items seen in most barnyards. But he gets huge bucks for them. OTOH, I can't sell a pen or duck call in my hometown for $5.00. Elsewhere they bring $35.00 to $300.00. Go figger.
 
I recently met someone who was, as a young woman, an assistant to Ansel Adams. In his later years, he no longer took photos, but sought to make as much money as he could by making prints of his work. Depending on size, they might sell for $250 or $300. Plus or minus. Anyway. This was in the 1970s or so. Those prints today can sell for $30K to well into 6 figures.

Look at CH Becksvoort's work.
http://www.chbecksvoort.com/
It is exquisite. His prices are consistent with that. Could someone without his name and rep get those prices? Dunno.

When Ben put his stuff in a local gallery, I was impressed by how much he priced his work. He preferred to sell fewer and get what he felt they were worth, rather than sell more. Vaughn's work is fabulous. Is he rewarded for his work? But for the most part, I think our society doesn't recognize or care to pay for the kind of quality that real artists and artisans put out, until they have those "big" names, and then the pieces become an investment.

Funny story - a friend of mine really admired the Wood Song Canoes. At the time, they were selling for about $6K. For his 60th bday, his wife gave him the ok. A year later, Sam Maloof praised the fellow who made the WoodSongs. Next year the price was $12K. My friend's purchase turned out to be a very good investment.

And one last comment, I know a guy who is a radiologist and a very astute businessman. He has 6 lathes in his shop, and would donate his surplus tools as prizes at the local turning club. When the club would bring in the big name guys for demos, they would do the demo at this guy's shop, and he would often talk after hours with the demonstrators. The one common denominator he said he saw in all these professional turners, was a working wife with a good job, and good insurance.
 
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Well my wife has great insurance thru her job...if only she made enough so I could play, I mean work, in the shop all day long....and get a new car. :rofl::D
 
The people who are successful seem to be able to form a relationship with an influential collector. Once that collector buys some of the craftsman's work, other collectors also want some of the work. It builds from there.

But to get the first "big sale" you need to have something really "attractive" and "unique" about your work. Your work has to be something that many people will look twice at. I remember the first time I saw a Maloof rocker. It was different and yet attractive. I can see why people were drawn to his work. Your work has to do the same.

Mike
 
Hi,

I am going to reply to your question before I read any of the posts. I reserve the right to add to this post.

How do people demand so much for the work? The basic answer is simple. They ask for it with confidence.

If an item is priced at one-dollar and I want it enough, I pay the dollar and it is mine.
If the same item is priced at two-dollars and I want it that badly, I pay the two-dollars and it is mine.
If that same item is priced at ten-dollars and I want it that badly, I pay the ten-dollars and it is mine.
If that same item is priced at one-hundred-dollars and I want it that badly, I pay the hundred and it is mine.
If that same item is priced at one-thousand-dollars and I want it that badly, I pay the thousand and it is mine.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

If I take home 24,000 dollars per year and it is priced at two-thousand dollars, I have to really want it and I have to decide what else I will give up in order to be able to pay the two-thousand to purchase it. I cannot reduce my rent. I cannot reduce my "go to work" car expenses unless I will put up with the inconvenience of car-pooling.

I can: give up unnecessary driving, eat less expensive foods, greatly reduce the family's clothing expenses, etc., etc.

In other words, I will re-arrange my life style in order to purchase the item. I may rationalize (a real story) that paying 2,000.00 for a Sam Maloof dining table and chairs is a good investment (50 years ago). It was in this case (a 250,000.00 offer was rejected).

Advertisers create desire for a product so that the "victim" is willing to give up something else to purchase the product. And the product may be something as ridiculous as a painting done with a zebra's tail and watercolors.

To do it right you need a quality product (made well) with cosmetics that appeal to the group of people you have targeted as your potential "buyer" base. You and your sales place need to have the look that appeals to this base. Let's face it a dirty, un-tidy, shack is not the place to try to sell a 25,000 dollar coffee table to a debutante. However, an "artsy" looking home on "artsy" looking grounds with an "artsy" looking barn that houses a neat woodworking shop might be.

OK I will shut up...after bit. The prime answer is still, "You have to ask for the price." If you don't ask for it, NOTHING ELSE is going to matter.

DO NOT LOOK AT: How much the wood cost. How much the glue, time, electricity, etc. cost.
DO LOOK AT: What a great table this is. What a great appeal I built into this table. Are visitors to my shop (or to the buyer's home) going to look at this and be impressed?

When pricing your work, YOU ARE GOING TO BE YOUR WORST ENEMY!!! If you are hesitant---YOU LOSE! State your price and do it with full confidence AND SHUT UP! Or be like Sam Maloof; have someone else quote the price and ask for the money.

Enjoy,

JimB

Just remember, I may add to this or critique myself after I read what others have posted.:)

Go back and read the posts by:
Rob,
Cynthia,
Dom,
Chuck, and
Ancora.

When I was a young whippersnapper (1951) I was in with a doc who had been in practice since 1914. For the era, this was a very educated man. He had an excellent, well deserved, reputation. We had separate telephone numbers and exam rooms. However everything else was the same (shared)---same staff, same reception room, etc. The husband might be my patient, the wife his patient, I had some of the kids and he had some of the kids.

At one time my fees were three hundred percent higher than his. I thought it was because I had a great personality, was fresh out of school with an up-to-date education. Years later, looking back on it, I realized I was paid a lot more for the simple reason that (here it comes) I asked for it.

My fees were MUCH higher than the optometrist one block away. Higher than the ophthalmologist two blocks away. And MUCH higher than the Sear's and Roebuck contract doc. 10 or 12 blocks away. I was the highest priced eye doc in my town and the neighboring towns. I did render the best service, with the best equipment, and later, the best staff. Quality was my byword. I was always on the cutting edge technically. The companies that produced books on eye health, optics, techniques, etc. loved me. I was extremely proud of what I did for patients. (I think it is Steve Southwood that says something like, If you don't have pride in what you do, what do you have?

I was a darn good doc because I enjoyed what I did. I absorbed all of the newest techniques. I was on top of it all AND I CHARGED FOR IT WITH TOTAL CONFIDENCE that the patient received the very best.

You need to do the same thing; produce the best and charge for it.

I am sure that you would never guess that I thought that I was the best eye doc in the country. If you built a wonderful table, have confidence in yourself and sell it as "a wonderful table" not just a table that has $xx.00 in mahogany, a dollar in glue, 47 hours of labor, and a bucks worth of varnish. That table is an heirloom, a treasure---sell it as a treasure, not as a table. I can buy a table at Ikea for a few bucks.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
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Some further thoughts on this topic that in my view are very pertinent to the subject.

There is a great deal of this success that depends on your own outlook and view of yourself. This is before you even get to making something unique and marketing it.

If during your formative years and due to circumstances of your environment growing up, you do not believe you have self worth worthy of being paid big bucks for whatever it is you do, then in my view success will remain evasive in terms of how much you command in the value of your item.


Value is an intangible yes we pay with tangible money but how much is an intangible. This by default means its in your mind.

Marketing can influence how much others percieve an items intangible to be worth by gaining access to your mind through various means of communication.

But at some point it comes down to you being able to believe in the value yourself. This does not have anything to do with anyone else but how you percieve things and how you percieve your own outputs worth.


There is much psychology at play in this equation and it is very much the same as in the case of sports.

Take any top performing sports team, or even singular athlete such as say a golfer. There is good reason these entities hire on full time psychologists. The value issue related to the item you sell has also to do with the feeling of winning or loosing.

So securing a less than desirable price in the midst of seeing others that have leaves you feeling you lost and they won or they win continuously. Yet your items could very well be the same.

I dont believe in luck at all. You make your luck by creating and seizing opportunity. To do so requires more than pure sweat equity and labor.

The comfort level you have with risk plays into this equation. Seizing opportunity often means taking risks. But the taking of the risk can lead to a path of success.

We then look at that person and say they had a lucky break. I say nonsense. Some will say you need to be in the right place right time. I say you put yourself in those places if you want to be succesful just as you can put yourself in situations where you can go to jail do not pass go and get a life sentence. Its not about luck or timing.

If you care to read this story and boy this is going to be a ramble then you will see my first hand experience with it and i have many many examples like this i could site.

In 1998 as Managing director of a company i purchased a patent for technology so revolutionary i myself did not fully understand at the time. Now logic would say you never do this. But i was not intent at the time in using the technology rather i saw it as building blocks.
The device at the heart of the patent was a people counter. Note this was taking place in South Africa, far away from the hi tech hub of silicon valley or route 128.
I knew nothing of people counting at the time nor did i know anything about the market for people counting. The key to the technology was the incredible accuracy of the device and the distance over which it worked along with the volume it could cope with.

The device was not at all anywhere near market ready although it had been installed in a single location on trial and used in a census application on the railways.

To try cut this story short, i never saw the local market as even remotely being of substance in the future use of this technology.

In my view the place to market this product was the USA.

Now, consider this. If today we launched a new vehicle in the USA, we would have dozens of others to do comparisons and benchmarks to. But this was not the case for this device.

Logic would say you do a ton of research go talk to all the player etc etc etc .

I decided to take a booth at the largest international convention for shopping centers in the world that takes place annually in Las Vegas. This is what i mean by putting yourself in a posistion to have opportunity come along. It was a huge cost by comparison to our budgets and bear in mind the ratio of a US dollar expense to a SA company operating in rands.

Now when we pitched this product as a system to the execs of this industry, you have to believe it was equivalent to someone coming from outer mongolia with the latest patriot missile and trying to sell it to the US dept of defense. No where were we known for technology. Stealing it yes, gold yes, diamonds yes but development of something like this in South Africa you would be right to be skeptical.

Again in the intrest of getting to the point, after that exhibition i ended up with a meeting with the Executive VP of Operations for a very large group. At the meeting i offered to do a field trial in the most arduous of places under the worst conditions possible and for the first time in the industry i offered to have real time video recorded and matched to every count for them to view afrerwards. This trial took place in open air out at the Block at Orange in california. The passages their exceeded our max by 2. The trial was to take place in the week leading up to Christmas where shopping center traffic was at its peak. My guys had never done outdoor counting let alone covered twice the distance and whats more run the whole schebang off batteries.

This exhibition took place end of may, we met with the execs in July and in August began redevelopment of the basic unit we had purchased and had new stainless steel housings with new electronics all ready to go for shipment mid Nov. Pallets of equipment were shipped to california by air at huge cost and engineers were sent to deploy the goods once we had heard that all had arrived. Only one guy stayed behind to do the test video and post processing of the results.

In January the following year we had our meeting at the site with the guys from corporate HQ. They were shown the report with the results and were shown the video and were shown the report from their existing system at the time. There was no contest.

Next question was how much. Sorry it took a bit of background to get to this point.


Now when i purchased the patent our intent at the time was to sell the devices at a price of $1000. Where did this price come from. Well myself and my partner (deceased :( ..) sat together and said what would we pay in US $$. And so $1000 became the starting price.

When we went into the meeting the price i had in mind and had agreed with the rest of my guys, was $2500 per point.

At the time they asked whats the price i decided to throw out $4500 per point. Now consider this. The existing system was purchsed at a price of around $350 per point and i had the existing installer a Canadian company sitting with me as a future distributor for North America.

Consider that they had also just the year prior to our meeting completed a portfolio wide roll out of the prior systems and still had all this capital expenditure on their books. All this pointing to a come back in 3 to 5 years answer.

But we closed a deal to install the unit in a brand new mall at that meeting and got to do so in every one of their new properties. We had not even closed a deal back in our home turf yet in fact their deal helped us do exactly that with one of the largest life insurance company property owners in South Africa.

We took this product worldwide. end of story.


Now what did it take. Yes we had a unique product. But there are many unique products that dont make it.

What i had was devine belief that we would prevail. I had taken the risk of putting us in the right place to be able to meet the Canadians who were at the show looking for new products.

We had seized the opportunity to invest some our own money in doing a trial that could potentially blow up in our face given the time we had to test. Thereby taking further risk. It was not luck that it worked my guys put in hours beyond belief to make it so.

We made a point to make sure we communicated the value with the best means possible the worst possible circumstances and documentary proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And i was that full of belief that i put the price up when i realized they saw the value and i saw their faces.

None of it had to do with cost. But we had targeted the most appropriate largest audience for our products in the world.

Furthermore i derisked the purchase for the execs by offering a 100% money back gaurantee on the entire deal. Thats the belief i had in my guys and the techology and neither let me down. We changed the price of systems of this kind for the entire industry. But we brought integrity to the data being used for the first time in history.

The system was later installed at Desert Passage shopping center and required to undergo and audit by an independent high level auditing firm (name left out). The results were needed in a court of law for reasons not relevant to the system but management of the center. The auditors could not believe what they were experiencing. We passed with flying colors.

So what was the difference between us and the incumbent system.

We offered a value they could not possibly provide. But this value was totally intangible.
 
Rob,
What you offered was a perception of value, whether tangible or intangible, it was a perceived value. Money has a perceived value... the fact that we print a piece of paper with a number and call it a dollar bill, a five dollar bill, etc... it's still only a perceived value. The paper itself has no real value. Our work, no matter how beautiful, how unique, etc, still has to have that perceived value from the buyer, who is willing to pay the asking price. The asking price is again what the maker has decided would be a good perceived value... when I make a pepper mill or a bowl, I assign it a value of what I perceive it to be worth and as Jim Bradley said, ask that price for it... then I have to make the buyer perceive that the value I've assigned is a good value/price for the pepper mill or bowl.... it does come down to you get a price by asking for it... then convincing your buyer that you've asked a good price.

This was a good question/thread and lead to some good responses... from everyone.
 
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