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Franks request!!!!

larry merlau

larry merlau

Member
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18,741
Location
Delton, Michigan
just to appease frank, i am in the very early planning stages of my dream shop. so this is why i ask the strange questions he reflected on.. i am not saying it is a dun deal just gettin info and no.s. this red brain runs at the speed of a 386 or for the mac folks 650 quadra. so it takes time to settle in and get acclimated.. so here is another strange question.. heating has been discussed in other parts of the net world but i have differnt twist on it i think. the building, if it happens is around 1400 sq ft. with a ten ft. ceiling. the most econimical floor structure for this is concrete, want wood but that probally isnt going to happen.. have been looking at pipex or radiant would be around 4 zones of that in a concrete bed, with 2" foam under it. told that was the best thing to do have seen it done without any thing but pipe and crete..if i had the wood floor i could go witha furncae in the crawl space or in either floor type, i could hang a ceiling furnace ..propane in my area.. wood heat is great but the insurance isnt. plus you have to feed it regularry.. so here goes the question frank i hope i have qualified it enough for you today:) what are your heating plants and floor types and why or why not use what you have? thanks for the time.. just assume that the insulation will be adeqaute,, steve will make i do it right:thumb:
 
larry......if you go with a dual fuel boiler placed outdoors in a seperate enclosure the insurance co. will be happy, you can burn scrap or firewood and use propane for back-up if you`re too lazy to cut wood or make scrap;)
this would let you do radiant heat and burn wood too........tod
 
For radiant heat, you can use a hot water tank. Since the water will only be around 70 degree's or so. I know of a few pepole that do it this way and have no problems heating a three car garage. One of them runs a paint booth in his shop and has no problem keeping that part at 80 degrees. Just a Idea if the money is tight. This could get upgraded later on when you recover from the cost of building a new shop.
Al
 
tod evans said:
larry......if you go with a dual fuel boiler placed outdoors in a seperate enclosure the insurance co. will be happy, you can burn scrap or firewood and use propane for back-up if you`re too lazy to cut wood or make scrap;)
this would let you do radiant heat and burn wood too........tod
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Ditto. Cheapest cost in heat source going.
 
I have a 2 ton electric heat pump. For me, in my area it was the cheapest way to go. Where I am, no natural gas in my neighborhood, propane bottle is a PITA, and radiant was expensive initial cost considering the contractor I had just did garages and was quite expensive for every add on.

For a 24 x 32 x 10 shop I got a 2 ton heat pump installed for $2450. It was a price I could not beat. Costs for heating the shop haven't been bad, but we do not get as cold here in NC as many parts of the country.
 
Which Frank

Larry I was puzzled by your references to Frank, particularly in light of the fact that you are talking about building a shop. But, finally fugured out that that you are probably talking about Frank Fusco and not me. Is that correct?

On the subject of heating, I have a combination of an externally vented propane space heater and a wood stove. The cost of heating is minimal. :)
 
Frank Pellow said:
Larry I was puzzled by your references to Frank, particularly in light of the fact that you are talking about building a shop. But, finally fugured out that that you are probably talking about Frank Fusco and not me. Is that correct?

On the subject of heating, I have a combination of an externally vented propane space heater and a wood stove. The cost of heating is minimal. :)
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sorry for the confusiuon frank pellow it was stirred toward frank chaffee for his enlightned response to me question on skylights.. so rest at ease and dont fret me trying to have such a great thread as you had on your shop never happen i dont type that well and sure cant do what the others have dun. i just was answring frankie chaffee in jest...

and so you can rest assuured tod i thinik i can handle cuttin or makin scrap just ask steve'A:) ironically the hopeful shop would be settin right next to my home firewood stack so i might be able to sneak alittle out of there.. the only problem would be feeding two of the critters each day
 
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larry merlau said:
sorry for the confusiuon frank pellow it was stirred toward frank chaffee for his enlightned response to me question on skylights.. so rest at ease and dont fret me trying to have such a great thread as you had on your shop never happen i dont type that well and sure cant do what the others have dun. i just was answring frankie chaffee in jest...

and so you can rest assuured tod i thinik i can handle cuttin or makin scrap just ask steve'A:) ironically the hopeful shop would be settin right next to my home firewood stack so i might be able to sneak alittle out of there.. the only problem would be feeding two of the critters each day
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Now I understand. :doh: It was because of Frank Chaffee's posting in the skylight thread.
 
Karl Laustrup said:
Between the two of them two finger typin, I'll check in on this thread next week. ;) :D :rofl:
Karl
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Well birthday boy, :b-day: today you can say anything you want, but remember that I am not a day over 59, and what’s more, I know where you live.:wave:

Okay larry now we’re getting somewhere! 32’ x 45’ w/ trusses 9’ o.c.? Whatever, but definitely a good size shop and a substantial investment. Hydronic slab heating is a really good way to go if you can swing it. Congrats! You have obviously been holding out on us, btw. Dual-fuel outdoor boiler… yup.

As far as the concrete floor thing goes… I have spent a few years on concrete too, and the key is in the shoes. I don’t put nitro in my truck, but I put it in my cross trainers.:thumb:

One advantage you have is that Steve and his crew will work for free and he will pass his discounts on to you. :thumb: Also, should you lose power due to an ice storm, I’m sure he would come over with a generator to keep your fancy heating system working. Among the ways (many/few?) that I miss during that interminable period that I heated solely with wood, are that it worked when the power was out. To get rid of the fans for moving heat I put in a 120 gal. hot water heater with an exchanger coil. Ran a loop thru the stove so that water moved w/ or w/o pump. From the years before we had electricity and well, we had accumulated a number of 5 gal. jugs that we always kept filled with water… heated water on the wood range for bathing.

So larry, I know you and I know how sharp you are, so I’m sure you keep the real stuff covered, but if you have more questions please direct then to Karl.;) thx
 
Larry.........When I built my shop I did some serious research and would have put in radiant floor heat set in concrete with insulation under it. I don't have water in my shop so the city required that I put in some special safety devices. This raised the cost dramatically. I wanted to install the tubing and finish it later as money allowed. The city wouldn't issue me an extended permit to do it. In the end, for the reason of wanting it built without delay, I didn't do radiant and instead the LOML bought me a 75,000 btu Lennox overhead n/g furnace. Works well but I'd rather have had the radiant!
 
Frank Chaffee said:
One advantage you have is that Steve and his crew will work for free and he will pass his discounts on to you. :thumb: Also, should you lose power due to an ice storm, I’m sure he would come over with a generator to keep your fancy heating system working.
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BWAHAHAHA.....You're a funny guy Frank.:rofl:

I thought you were told "No funny business":huh:
 
ok frank now where would i get one of them double feed cookers i havnt been in the fermenting business ever i left that to the hillbillys. i just supported there business/ as of right now the hotwater heater sounds intersting like ken mentioned. i dont see where the codes would cause trouble but wouldnt be the first time i missed something. as for having Steve A and his crew for free well i am not him and dont know how you could volunteer his services frank????? but i am sure he would help out in any way he already siad he would make sure the refridge got connected properly. i am not holding out frank just being causious and not voicetrius.. i try not to speak with my mouth full and definaltl;y not out of turn.:D :wave:
 
Just to thrown a wrench in here.........

We have the radiant heat in our house, it is SO NICE one of the best things we did for the house!

It is way better than any forced air heat, in my opinion.

The thing is, or system goes between the underlay and the hardwood flooring.

It is like a thin foil sheet, with a bunch of tubes in it, it is only 3mm thick.

They do a retro fitment as well as a build it into new homes.

It really works!

retrofithotfloor.jpg
This pic shows the foil stuff between the hardwood flooring and the sub floor.

hotfloor.gif
Infared shots of a person in a room with forced air heat vs the radiant flooring.

hotfloor2.jpg
More infred shots of you feet in a forced air room, compared to radiant heat.

They show that over time it is MUCH cheaper to use the radiant heat than forced air.

I do not know if this is available in the US etc, but is sure works slick here.

The fluid in the tubes is heated by gas, in our case, and we have 4 zones, two in the living room, one in the dining and kitchen.

You could put a slab down and then two layers of plywood for your flooring....?

I sure hate my concrete Dungeon flooring, and I mean HATE it.

Cheers!
 
Stu....While working on concrete can be a drag, there is something to be said about thermal mass when used with radiant heating.
 
larry merlau said:
…ok frank now where would i get one of them double feed cookers i havnt been in the fermenting business ever i left that to the hillbillys. i just supported there business/ as of right now the hotwater heater sounds intersting like ken mentioned.
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larry, the 120 gal. I got was from Bock. We used it for DHW and heating the other end of our cabin. Well pressure on the main tank and 15 psi on the heat exchanger loop. I haven’t been keeping up on new HVAC developments, but these people have:

http://www.bockwaterheaters.com/index.html
Bock Water Heaters
110 S Dickinson Street Madison, WI 53703
Phone(608) 257-2225 Fax(608) 257-5304

Myself excepted, the liberal hippie freak engineer population in Madison Wisconsin has long been bringing useful green stuff to market. The one you may be interested in is this: http://www.bockwaterheaters.com/Products/products_coil_tank_water_heaters.html It would allow you to have a shower in your shop as well.

I was a weldor in the wood stove industry at the time (early-seventies to early eighties), so I made my own exchanger at the stove end of the loop. The rest was simple plumbing… a Grundfos pump and an expansion tank, a manual ball valve to bypass the pump in case of power outage, and a finned radiator at the other end, similarly looped.

That <1/8” thick radiant system that Stu refers to sounds great and worthy of exploration too. The Bock heat exchangers are rated for fluid media other than water. The Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji in Stu’s pics I don’t understand, but the point may be that that the human body is more comfortable in a radiantly heated space. I know I would love to work barefoot. Seems that the thermal mass of a slab would be an integral part of the machine.

There are many precedents to our current use of floor radiant heating systems from most every continent on the globe. One visionary, from just up the road from here used black pipe (galvy?), waterlines in slabs to do it. Trouble was they clogged and rusted out. Still, gotta give the guy credit for expanding the way we go about creating our living spaces.

I guess larry, that you will have to present your needs to the local HVAC guys and see if they are sharp enough. If they aren’t then give me a holler and I will connect you with one who is.

…and hey, Frank and Frank, that visionary architect I referred to went by the name of Frank too.
 
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