Opinions on the Router CNC machine

Messages
234
I have posted on other web site forums that I've been kicking around the idea of buying a Router CNC for wood carving and for mostly for after a retirement job . I have a shop full of woodworking tools and would this tool make my life easier and help me in the long run make a better business or a part time business:thumb: . I just would like to have everybodys opinion on this subject . I have even consided a laser for metal and wood cutting .of course I know that I'd have to buy a laptop and Router and the real good bits and of course the up-keep and Maintence is also a question :huh:.......any thoughts please are welcome ......................MB :type:
 
I've had the same thing in mind Marshall. The family has convinced me to start selling some of my projects and I have a website in progress. Up to now I've refused quite a few requests for furniture and small items but the reality of Social Security and lots of free time is opening my eyes :eek: The cnc router is pretty expensive and it's not the first tool upgrade I'm going to buy but I am defiantly giving it serious thought.
 
What a box of conundrums! Would it make your life easier? Well, this is a place I have been. And it is a place I am considering visiting again. Here are some things to think about. The most valuable aspect of a CNC is its ability to reproduce many multiples of the same thing and usually faster. But the investment is humongous, and not just in money.

My first issue is space. This is not a machine that takes well to being moved around. The slightest bit of misalignment (as in racking) very materially affects its accuracy. Especially important if you are making things that fit one another. Super dust collection is an absolute requirement. Holding down the work pieces can get real interesting and there is a need to be especially creative here. There are cutting forces that our brain automatically compensates for when we hand hold a tool. When we mount the tool on a gantry we will have to intentionally plan for those forces and program accordingly.

On the human side of things, a nerdy desire to create files and troubleshoot the cutting process is an on-going process. The machine will do exactly what you tell it to do. It is hard on the ego to realize that you did not tell the 'dumb' machine to do what you intended for it to do.

The pluses: Accurate multiple cuts milled more quickly than to do them individually. Question here? Do you have a market for those multiples? Even if it is just giving them away.

Another plus: Combining computers with sawdust. Different skills to be sure but many of us enjoy both worlds. Question here? Would I need to rely on the programming of others or am I willing to learn for myself, especially the trouble shooting part?

Another plus: The ability to make things that would very time comsuming to do otherwise, like Tab A fits into Slot B upon assembly accurately everytime time type projects. Question here? How many ofo these will I need or want to do?

Machine and tooling costs. A small machine with a very limited cutting area will run you at least $1K. Add several hundred more for tooling for the machine. If you do not already have compressed air and super dust collection, add those costs in. A thing to remember with regard to cutting area is that the hold down area is included in that space. Example: Cutting a 6" by 12" sign. Add at least 4" on each dimension for holding the sign down while cutting. Now your area has grown to 14" x 20". Unless you want to also launch into vacumm hold downs which will exponentially add to your investment by nearly 2 times.

Also, when different cutters are required, your overall processing time takes a big hit with the change over. It is not just changing the cutter. There is also reprogramming to compensate for the different cutter. And your hold down methodology may also be affected.

Why do it? It's fun and it is possible to get a return on your investment, but you will have to develop a market for your items and your items must be designed to fit into the parameters of your machine. So it you have the space, the bucks, a potential market, and the bug, go for it. Warning: like anything computerized expect prodigious amounts of time to be invested. CNC's are time sinks at the front end.

You will need the other tools already in your shop. Work blanks need to be prepared and CNC'ed work needs post processing. A finished product is not automatically produced, even on the largest and most sophisticated (and expensive ) machines.

Will I do it again? Probably. I have some ideas. But I do need to settle down in one area for a while which right now my life is not supporting. Lots I haven't covered. Just ask.
 
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dont know the cost outlay for cnc sized for what your looking to do but i have seen alot of lazer work that is avaible and the intail out lay in tools is less i think.. but it is one that you should look at with the dollars and compare the two.. you can mor elikey do one ofs or mulitples witha lazer like names on pices or trivites and to me would require less learning...
 
Are you looking at more of a carvewrite size or larger?

If larger, as Carol mentioned, there is additional equipment such as dust collection, vacuum hold downs, bits, software, etc. Some of that equipment you may already have and use for other equipment/processes. I think you have to determine what you're going to be building and if the items will pay for the equipment over time or if you are willing to eat the cost if it just makes your life easier. Also look at how often you're going to do it, there may be a family member here that can be used for outsourcing some parts, such as laser carving/cutting.

I've built my own CNC and have been collecting parts to build a larger one. You spend a lot of time tweaking, fine tuning, and working around short comings, but I think we do that with any tools in our collection, the cnc is no different. Depending on your budget a turnkey solution may be more suited to your needs, like I said, you have to determine what you're going to use it for.
 
FWIW, I joined Joe's CNC forum ($100 fee) and got the plans for a 4' x 4' machine. Great forum, BTW. this is a build-it-yourself machine, as was my ShopBot many years ago. The technology has moved light years since that time. Many have altered Joe's plans and I will also. I don't envision having room for a 4'x'4' machine. Actual foot print is closer to 8'x8' for access, loading and unloading, etc. I want to keep my footprint to around 4'x6'.

The really cool thing about building your own is that you build the actual size you need and can accommodate. And a good forum of users is more than helpful. It is what drove me to the ShopBot to begin with.

Another thing you can do at this point is look at the software. Many have free downloads to play on screen with for a period of time. Good way to see if this is something you want to mess with. I am going with Vetric.

Hope these insights are helpful.
 
Carol, It's been a while since I've messed with the cnc. I'm evaluating using EMC2 on Linux for the controlling software. I just wanted to verify, the Vetric software only does the modeling and generating cut paths, you still need a control software like emc2 (linux) or mach3 (windows) correct?
 
Marshall, you might want to look at www.brookemdavisdesign.com/ - a young lady with a furniture design education, who uses a CNC (shop bot) to create artistic components for her furniture. She admits that after she gets a pattern perfected (such as woven branches) she does resize, adapt, and reuse the pattern many times, but not necessarily to build another copy of the same exact piece.

Brooke also rents shop time and space, and teaches CNC through www.makeshiftatx.com - another site with links and ideas.

One of my friends who also does custom furniture invested in a ShopBot. He started thinking it would be a $5000 investment, but admits he has $25-30,000 invested in machine and software. He has done a lot of Tudor style architectural millwork, which requires unique hand-carved panels everywhere - among other uses, he has the ShopBot do the rough carving, which he finishes by hand.

Talking to CNC users, one of the easy high volume use of smaller CNC machines is making signs. Look into that as a specialty to get you started with CNC.

When I retired to full-time woodworking, I thought a CNC would help me work alone safely - first requirement was NO employees or helpers. I was ready to buy a CNC (presumably complete except cutters) for $25,000. As we were filling out the paperwork, the salesman asked what I would do for hold down. I said, "whatever you included in this COMPLETE system." He said "that isn't included either. We recommend a minimum of 15 hp vacuum pump." Shortening the long story, I tore up the contract, and later bought a combo machine with 8.5 foot sliding table saw.

You might want to look at www.solowoodworker.com - so many people were envious of the business I built as I retired, that I got tired of repeating the advice, and built a web site with that advice.
 
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Carol I was about to pull the trigger on the Joe's CNC too. I have been thinking about it for a long time. Do you think it can be made to compete with the Shopbot??

I have also been looking into the CaMaster. Nice machine but starting to get up there in $$. So far everything I am finding is to big (been there) or to small for my needs ( I want to cut 5'x5' Baltic birch sheets) I loved my 4'x 9' Andi but have no intentions of getting that big again but it did spoil me as far and wanting vacuum and tool changer:thumb:
 
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@Jay. I do, and I think at a lower price point. ShopBot has gotten a bit pricey since I was in the game. I expect the machine I have in mind will come in at $4-5K with a few of the suggested upgrades. No lead screws. R&P all the way. Twin beam gantry. Cast aluminum trucks. Welded table. Vetric and Mach3. Bigger motors. For starters.
 
I'm in the early stages of building my first. I used inspiration from a Joe's 2006 design but then found linear bearings and some aluminum C channel so I ventured out on my own design and just recently started building on it. Out of respect to this forum, I won't direct you guys to my forum's build thread but I do have a few youtube videos and here's a rough pic of the final design:

base---with-bracing-small.jpg
 
This is far more than I ever expected in comments , if there's more out there keep it coming ........this has been a big help so far with the web-site I'm planning on visiting also ...................MB
 
Marshall I would advise you to give Charlies info a good read.

Here is my view on this technology and its appropriateness.

a) I am a big fan of the flexible manufacturing concept in general and i think its absolutely marvelous for that purpose.

b) I love the idea of the tinkering with it as a hobby but listen to what Carol said, you going to invest a huge amount of time personally getting to the point where you are proficient at using it and that aint easy. There are several learning curves here and no short cuts.

c) I think it definitely has a place in a small shop but i qualify this by coming back to its purpose.

We are generalising here about the category of machine. There are machines that are cnc out there intended for small repetitive tasks such as CNC carving where they have geared the entire process to be cookie cutter to setup and perform the operation and repeat even with a different pattern.

My reference here would be something small like the Shark that Rockler markets. This size machine is perfect for a small shop where embellishment of a item is being considered as a way of providing further value to the item. It also allows a degree of customization of an item and I know Toni will dislike this comment but it will do machine carving which if you are doing batch runs of something then machine carving is appropriate for the mass market and to enhance your products attractiveness to the buyer.

But when we get to the bigger "small" machines, i think you need to stop and come back to business basics.

Here you gotta start with a business plan. Quiet rightly many have refered to the issue of the investment and in my view this is where small shop guys go wrong. First up they discount their time. So to them in their mind their time invested in learning is "free" when its actually not unless you have no need to make this time productive but then read hobby not business.

Even at min wage the hours spent learning have a price tag. Add that to tooling test sample work that gets scrapped and other extras and i think its as big a vortex if not more pricey than spinny work.

So now we come down to $$ invested in the form of Capital or Debt + $$ invested in the form of labor hours in learning.

So where is the return. You need to be considering this aspect and this is where i think most go wrong.

The motivation to invest the dollars needs to come from the business and the demands being placed on the business. First up you need to have a product or product range and have proven that there is demand for it. Not one or two that you sell at a craft fair but serious demand. This kind of demand would be originating really from the ability to sell the item through some form of distribution channel.

So lets examine distribution.

Options are you could sell direct to the end user via the internet or you could set yourself up with a distribution structure.

If via the internet you need to be able to get enough people attracted to your site and willing to take the plunge and buy your product. The beauty of this is that you keep all the margin. The negative to it is trying to get enough attention given all the websites out there. In this case your cost structure for the product is not that important since you have sufficient margin to play with.

If you get to looking to distribution as a way of feeding the machine volume then you got to consider the margin because you are essentially a manufacturer wholesaling your product to the distributor and the distributor is not going to do it for nothing. The distributor also has little loyalty to your product and will not invest in marketing your product. So you now have the added demand for creating awareness of your product and informing people where they can get it.

This brings up the subject of Marketing. Its my pet subject as a business advisor to small business.

Why? Most small businesses are under capitalised yet have the desire to grow.

That single statement tells you that in order to scale up your business you need to consider carefully where you are going to get the best bang for your buck simply because the bucks are going to cost you. Dont say to me you have the money. Even if you have the money you have a cost associated with it because if you did nothing but keep it invest you would get a return which you will now be loosing out on if you invest it in something that does not provide a return. So there is no getting away from the fact that any money has a cost.

So the biggest issue in my view to scale up of a small business and it dont matter whether it is from one man to one man plus automation is where and how best to deploy that capital.

There are only two areas in my view where value is created in dispropotion to the spend within a business.

1) Research and Development of new product.
2) Marketing and branding of a new product.

What happens though is most of the hobby guys turning pro dont carry across a business like approach to the subject. So you find technically the person can relate to the technical side of the business.

By this i mean the machines the working with the machines, material choice material purchase but very few ever consider the sales and marketing side of the business.

CNC is a classic area in this case. Yeah its great to get all geeky and learn machine code and be fascinated by how accurate and repetitive this machine can put out work.

But what is the plan behind this. Please i am not saying disclose this plan here. Just make sure that the cart does not come before the horse.

If the plan is that you have product x which you would like to sell then i ask the following questions.

a) What is your current demand?
b) What are the implications of quadrupling that demand? ie what would it take what is needed across the business to do this. What net bottom line profit would come from doing this at the current method. What and where is the bottle neck. Would the CNC remove this bottle neck? If the bottle neck was removed by an alternative method lets say for arguments sake CNC then what would the increase be in the net bottom line. Look at that value and decide if it is a worthwhile return on investment.
Now could the work that this "method" requires be subcontracted to someone that already has gone through the learning curve and is into a curve of machine utilization and looking to keep the loading up to make money.
Given product life cycles today would this not be a better course to follow.

Does the business have the resources (MONEY) to be able to ensure that the marketing and advertising investment can be sustained at the same time as the payments and learning curve for the new machine.

How many of the widget that you have in mind to produce do you think you can sell and what sort of repeatability have you already achieved. How long do you think you can continously sell the said widget before the market for it dies off or demand channels run dry.



So what does this all bring up. Something that is part of marketing but again technical type people shy away from it and that is market research. Go out and do the numbers do some test marketing. What do i mean here.

a) Go out and test what the price point needs to be for the intended target audience to purchase the item. Now establish how many would sell at that price. Next establish the what if scenario. What sort of demand would arise were the price to be dropped by 10 20 or even 30%. Does demand interest go sky high or rise significantly.

b) Examine your product cost. Lets look at any woodworking product. I again keep hearing guys refer to the use of the term "free wood". " I sold it for X and made y because the wood was free. DUH. You lost money. Why? because if you have to repeat the excerscise you need to buy wood for the next one and the customer that was refered by the original customer where you priced the item based on "free wood" is now not going to pay a higher price because you have to buy the wood this time around.

So lets look at costs. Something else a small business guy dislikes doing because it does not suite the entrepreneurial spirit.

In a woodworking product we have

Material ......both amount used and waste.
Labor
Finish
Hardware and sundries like sandpaper, screws, nails, hinges etc.

= Direct Product Costs

Scrap.....no not the waste from the cutting out. This time waste from mistakes where you start again.
Overheads (as in electricity to run a machine and new blades when your existing ones need replacing or sharpening)
Depreciation (another point not considered but if your business is going to run any length of time at some point you going to be replacing machines or your maintenanc bill is going to increase so you need to be providing for this in a write down of the value of your existing machines.
Inventory...you have the cost of the capital for carrying your material you have on hand unless you begin to buy based on demand, but this is then not stepping up to keeping a CNC machine going.
 
continuation
Lets now consider transistion from a manual labor intensive process to a more rapid automated process.

The first item is material. ask yourself will there be less scrap using a cnc. how much do you estimate. Will there be less waste how much do you estimate. But will the process require the material to be in a different state to that which you currently manage to get by on? If so you could be in for higher upfront material costs and impact to what you have on hand.

Next what reduction in labor would there be. This is where the biggest saving comes from. Here i can see a hobby guy saying i wish to invest in a CNC machine to keep my production the same but buy back some of my time and interest by having the machine do some of the more repetitive work for me.

Here is the only get out of jail card i would throw at this whole point. That one retires and needs to be doing something. If you enjoy the whole process of making stuff and like the interaction of selling it and want to take the boring repetitive element out of it and be able to gain some time along with have the coin to invest i say go for it.

Otherwise you have to be brutal about payback.

Next would the finishing be any easier or quicker due to the CNC process or not. So is there again something to be gained or not?

When you have answered those questions and come up with a number. Put a value to that number in terms of dollars per hour that you currently earn from the time you spend on the sales you currently have or on the price/hours you believe you would make it for manually versus what the improvement would be doing it with the CNC.

Now ask yourself is this amount sufficient to make the product either cheaper or get you a payback at your current level of sales.

If cheaper then what would the increase in volume be if you could drop your price proportionally to the reduced value you gain through the new process.


Oh well so much for the auto save feature. It did work but i did not notice it stopped at some point and lost the rest.

Sorry i cannot recover it so this will have to do.

Best of luck Marhsall
 
Oh well so much for the auto save feature. It did work but i did not notice it stopped at some point and lost the rest.

Sorry i cannot recover it so this will have to do.

The auto-save runs every 60 seconds, so either you typed a lot very quickly or you've hit a length limitation (which wouldn't surprise me with you Rob :D). Will do some checking on it though since I'm curious. :wave:
 
I have nothing to contribute, not something I want to do or own. But I have been looking at the possibility of having someone make some parts to for me. At this point I don't have much of a demand but I see that increasing in the future. Here is what I want cut from plywood.

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