Project Cost-- Pricing

Just for a basic cabinet that size I would charge about $750. Now add the flip top, a means of supporting that flip top and having to finish the back side would add about another $350 to the price. About 3 to 4 days to finish.

allen levine said:

seems to me alot of people either want to gain friends, not clients.

I think before Id build anything for anyone, Id have to first consider if Im making this for a friend, or am I making this for a client.

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If I make something for a friend it is something I give away, If I am charging for it I will quote the price I need to cover costs and make a fair profit. The last large delivery I did was the church commission and even though I a ma member of the congregation I charged them the same as I would anyone else. I not only covered my costs but to buy a morticer as well as pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

I came out about $1500 ($500 materials, $1000 labor @ $25 per hour), but I didn't take into account the cost of running and growing the business...which would easily double the labor rate. I think it would not be profitable unless you were assembling several of these at once and assembly lining the processes to cut your labor, which is a major factor.

Compared to the stuff you can buy pre-made, that price is probably in line, but look at the options available...

http://www.sewingmachinesplus.com/sewing-cabinets.php

I hadn't really looked at it from the perspective that what you made may not work in everyone's space. Having something that fits the exact space the customer works in can make a big difference in how useful it is to them and what they are willing to pay. I'd think you could have a good niche market if you can do that and there is a demand for it.

just in case,, the folks that have tried this quiz ,, have gotten the answers i came out with, and are what made me realize that if someone asks to have one of us make something for them and we will be paid for it. look closely because there are hidden costs that arent always as they seem.. the time frame to make this alone is like darren brings up is a eye opener..

@Rennie: stick to your guns.

As far as time frame you got to stop thinking like a hobbyist and start thinking more like a manufacturer if you want to make money.

Well I am going to throw in 2 cents that may not directly apply but I think you could start basing custom work on it. I had a friend that I worked with for several years who did custom electrical fab for several years. He fabricated the controls for some of the first fully automatic car washes around. He estimated everything just by counting the amount of solder connections. ANd at the time 30-35 years ago his price was 1.00 per connection. Each screw ect had a similar price. He had an old table he worked on that had made him so much money he was sentimentally attached to it.

I see this work in a very similar fashion. You have the materials which are rather to calculate plus the waste. You should buy your materials as close to wholesale as you can and estimate at retail. Each cut, rabet round over should have a price per foot. Same with glue up per piece ect.

This should then cover all you materials plus Labor and shop overhead all you have to add is your artsy, fartsy factor, and hazardous waste disposal.

It would need some tweaking but like everything else it is an ongoing process. You would be surprised at how easily this would become over time. And any non standard design should also have a cost associated with it but remember if you charge for design unless you have legal words in place the design belongs to the customer and you can't build more copies.

In the area I live you can buy glued up oak panels cheaper than I can buy the oak in them...however only a production shop would accept the grain matching..

The really sorry part is the easiest way to make decent money is to turn out a lot of generic "pretty good" products at a price to be sold at the oak outlets ect..

Or if your good enough and can get the name then the really high end stuff where they don't have to ask what it costs..

Then of course you could always get a reality show and curse and throw things..... Get free tools and Bob's your uncle..

With the cabinet you show I say off the shelf if you were to sell retail as handcrafted maybe 750-900.. As a custom built to spec then 900-1200.. If you get a really big name then 1800-3000...

As some one said earlier in the thread you almost have to have the time down to production..


And all the "you" are generic as I was just stating how ii think one could approach the project not what Larry should charge..

Garry

Alan Bienlein said:

As far as time frame you got to stop thinking like a hobbyist and start thinking more like a manufacturer if you want to make money.

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Allen is right, I've mentioned before, I used to make stained glass landscaping lights. I could make one light in 5 hours or I could make 10 in 6 hours. Even if it's a one-off, can it fit along with other jobs you have going in the shop? Such as when you're doing other similar tasks/tool setups? Finish pieces when you've got other jobs being finished? Cut your labor and you'll be able to cut costs.

It's very easy to give a low price when your hungry and have sellers regrets latter, that is a sure road to the poor house. I remember having a guy come to me and ask me for a price for an Island, he had a large butcher block counter top , I mean it was huge so I designed something for him in sketchup, I was able to do that relatively quick and then do an estimate on the price. The unit would have had 6 drawers and six doors for cabinet all to have pull outs. I did an estimate gave him a price and he never got back with me. So what is my point, well I did invest a little time doing a design for which I never got paid, that's ok I consider that as cost of sales, the point is I would not negotiate on price. If he would have given me the contract, I would have asked for 1/3 down to make sure my material costs were covered then I would have given him a first class job but since I didn't get the job I moved on and never regretted it.

$950 and they pick up.

My price will be different on material, but all my stuff come in wholesale, so..Design fee$200, $250 material, Labor $1000(4 days including finish), Customer price $1800-$2000.

Materials $350-$400. Take 4-5 to vompleye and finish. And in my area I'd be LUCKY to get $750. Hence why I still have a day job.

Thanks for the input on this folks, we all can learn from this and my misgivings the more i do the more i see where the junk mentality is winning over in many areas. to bad, that it is but we all have and are in some form or another buying into it.. sometimes buying 2 cheap ones is as good as buying one good one.. as for tools take the high dollar domino tool ,2 or three years ago it was very pricey and was the talk of the town, some bought it and most didnt now they come out with a larger one which makes more sense to be more versatile, but they could have made the big one first rather than get folks talked into the smaller one then change it to make the work better in another tool but that gets more dollars in there pocket not ours.. so if we can find those special people that want it right the first time and to last then we need to charge enough to do that..we cant be like me and give our talents away to all that ask..this was a very enlightening experience and caused me some headache as i was working on it in the beginning because i was beating myself up each time i was thinking on the time it was taking and what i was getting for my time.. towards the end of it i had come to the conclusion to make it a learning exercize and hope that i get more work threw this customer for the right price..

To be honest I have no idea, but if I had to guess, I would calculate the price based on the hour cost and later add the materials plus a percentatge to cover for electricity and ROI of the machinery that would be the only fixed part of the calculation.

So if the time it took to make was i.e. 50 hours, I would multiply that for the amount I believe my work and skills cost and that amount I would add to the other figure of the materials+energy+ROI. That would give me what I would consider a fair price.

If for market reasons or any other I had to lower the price, I would calculate the hourly wage inversely and I would find out how much cheaper I'm selling my skills. For instance imagine that I would charge 50$ per hour which I considered that would give me that fair price for which I would sell the piece without remorse.

If due to market reasons I had to lower the price down to find out that with that price I would be charging 10$ per hour, then I would ask myself if it was worth or not. Obviously there maybe personal circumstances that may drive someone to accept that deal or even a lower one.

I know that this is not what Larry was asking, but I see it is a recurrent thread and it is something I would like to know as well.

Let's face it, most of us don't have any idea about how much we should, could or would charge for one of our pieces.

I'd estimate 225 for wood, 70 for hardware, 30 for finishing supplies, 20 for wear and tear on equipment. Maybe 30 hours if I was working for a living, my hobby work rate would be more like 50+.

I think it might sell around 750-800. Whether I'd work 30 hours for 400-450 just depends on my other options. If I had plenty of orders I'd price it higher knowing I might not get it. If its your only job on the books, Id be happy with positive cash flow, references, possible future work.

Knowing what else is available also helps. If there is no similar item commercially available then it should sell for more.

Way too few details.

Shot in the dark? Between $2000 & $3000. I'd probably have about a grand into into it with material, hardware, and finish (which I hire out). Lots of variables in finishes too. I could have almost $1k in finishing if the person wanted it painted, distressed, and burnished. I'd have 30 hours into it all said and done probably, and even if I had $2k in pre-tax profit, that'd be $65 an hour. Not really worth it to me, I'd probably turn the project down unless I was bored.

You guys are way too cheap.

One of the best pieces of advice ingot on running a business and taking on work was from an old friend of my dad's, he said....

"I never lost money on a job I did NOT take".

.... Sounds simple but it is so very true.

For me here in Tokyo I'd have to charge at least $2500 to even get near making money, really $3000 would get me into the black enough to buy myself lunch every now and then.

Something else, if I made four of these units, not just one, even if I did not make them all at the same time, I'd make more money, because making something one off takes s lot more time.

So Larry are you going to tell us how much you did sell it for?

well folks i have sent the answers to anyone who replied but will now give it out here,, karl this was stained and spray lacquer, and 3/4" ply on the sides and back and no DT on the drawers, ply bottom. also solid popular drawer stock..so maybe you can give us your comparison after this new info

ANSWERS that i had and got..
well jeb this what i had into it and got for it...

575 materials , got 50 for delivery, and 175 for building it,, my dumb mistake of looking at materials and just looking at what she would spend and dropped price,, the only good thing is she is pleased beyond comparison and will tell many of my work,, i told her that i would not make another for anyone for this price it was for her only. and i told her this before she got it or saw the final product. if i was to do it again at least 1250 and if i thought i could get more i would like many mentioned.. one more time i bit my own arse

but here is some more info ,
1 day to stain it, drying time included
1 day to spray it, 3 coats
1 day for final assembly after finish
1 day for drawers alone and actually another half day to fit the frnts
1 day for materials, planing, gettin plywood
and to long to construct lost one day fixun the drawers after i had them made and glued up and realized they were 1" to wide for the slides to work...
1 day to design it and get things set with customer as to what where and why..

Now with some insight, do a spreadsheet exercise for the purpose of determining overhead.. Here are a few thoughts.

Driving to get materials: miles roundtrip at 55.5 cents per mile [IRS determination]; time at driver's rate of pay, say $8.00 per hour [minimum wage without withholding as you would for an employee]. Delivery time and mileage as well.

Design time at $25.00 per hour. Paperwork time at $15.00 per hour. Construction time at least $30.00 per hour. Drying time doesn't count. Marketing time at a 10% commission in selling price to myself. Profit is on top of that, as is ROI on the shop and its equipment.

For materials, include clean-up for finishes and such, sweeping the shop, etc. [time is $8.00 per hour]. Think in terms of hiring someone to do it. I estimate construction time by the number of pieces, including hardware, that go into the finished pieces. They all need 'handling' of some nature. My estimate in my shop is 30 minutes each, which includes sanding and finishing, fiddling and fettering, installing and fine tuning, to get things just right. I got that number by actually building a small piece and timing, with a stop watch, every operation. PIA, but I learned an awful lot from that exercise!

Now, we may not be able to get that as we build the business, but we need to plan to get that. And in the beginning when jobs are not piled one on top of another is a good time to work these exercises, so we know for the future.

There is much more to overhead - think sandpaper, glue, light bulbs and shop toilet paper for starters. If the business is to be successful, then none of these things can be overlooked. Unless you want to use worn out sandpaper for toilet paper! Don't forget utilities. Use a copy of Schedule C as your worksheet. Learn what applies and keep records on those things.

Understand how the IRS impacts your business. What is deductible? What does self-employment tax mean to you and how much is it? How are you handling your records so you don't pay more in taxes than you ought to, or less than you need to and then suffer the consequences. Getting laid off it one thing. Building a business is another. Having the government destroy the business because you haven't paid attention to the bottom line with them is the final straw. We KNOW the Feds are not here to help us.

Been there, done that with all of this. I am not offering opinions. I am speaking from personal experience. Advise? Stay in front. Be prepared. Don't guess. Don't 'wait' to find out. Be confident and get what you are worth. The jobs will come. People invest their money with folks who know what they are doing. After all, how may of us have said, we don't mind paying a little more to get quality, piece of mind on a job done well and completely done, with someone we can trust. That is why we ask for recommendations from our friends. Now we get to be the one who is recommended!

Remember to keep your sense of humor in tact as all this can get very frustrating. But you are worth it so do yourself proud!

Larry, this thread has been an eye-opener for sure . As much as I would luv to be a "professional" woodworker, I don't have the skills or business sense to make a proper go at it . I, most of the time{thankfully} manage not to lose on the few items I've sold. But, I never remember to think of the over-head{IE: utilities, sandpaper, glue etc.} The time thing is another down-fall of mine. The time invested chasing supplies, set-up, clean-up, the list goes on the more I think about it...can you tell I don't get paid for thinking either. Good thing I enjoy just being in the shop.

Oh yeah, how about this for a slap on the head and still not seeing the light...I have on a couple of occasions, been given a healthy $ tip when squaring up with the customer...makes one wonder if all the smiles are from pure enjoyment of the item or the fact they got it for a steal.