Endgrain Pieces/DNA Bath/ Need Anchorseal ?

Mike Turner

Member
Messages
361
Location
Laurinburg NC
I have turned some endgrain pieces. Small to mid size stuff...I soaked them in a dna bath 12 to 24 hrs. Do I need to now put anchorseal on the endgrain part or is that defeating the purpose, unnecessary or overkill?
 
It depends somewhat on the wood species, the wall thickness, and the size of the piece. I've not turned much endgrain stuff, but IMO the Anchor Seal is probably not necessary. (Then again, I don't put Anchor Seal on any of my rough turnings. Heck, I've pretty much quit using DNA, too, since I have about the same 90% - 95% success rate without.)
 
I don't use DNA bath much anymore but instead after watching a demo by Mike Mahoney who roughs his bowls, HF's, platters, etc. and anchorseals the whole piece. I have lost one bowl. It was apple which didn't surprise me. So all my turnings get a coat of anchorseal after roughing. It does take from 8 months to a year for them to dry but I am not in a hurry. I have some 70 or 80 bowls in varies states of drying. Everytime I finish one I rough 3 or 4 more to replace it. That way I have a supply of lidded boxes, platters, bowls, HF's, etc at all times ready to finish.
 
Mike I rough turn my bowls, soak in DNA overnight. Let them flash off to surface dry, then I coat the outside with Anchorseal or Johnson Paste Wax. I can finish turn in 4 to 8 weeks. I still get some that warp a little, which I don't like. Sometimes I get a crack but very rarely. I make my stuff to sell and I can't sell a cracked bowl. I will microwave something if I need it to dry quick. I weigh a turning and when it stops loosing weigh I consider it dry.
 
Why do you turn wet wood then let it dry? Why not just turn dry wood??

A couple of points, green/wet wood turn very easy compared to dry wood. The second is $$$$, I have no idea how much a 12” X 16/4 blank would be if kiln dried but it would be a LOT higher than a tree you cut down or salvaged. Even larger bowl blanks that you do buy are most often wax coated and still green when you remove the wax.
 
Bob, to add to what Mike said, if you air-dry a 12" x 12" x 6" chunk of wood, the chances are VERY high that it'll crack and be unusable for a bowl. Plus, it'll take several years to dry. On the other hand, if you rough-turn that block of wet wood into a bowl with 1" thick walls, it's much less likely to crack as it dries, since it'll have a bit of flexibility. (It may warp some, but once dried, you can re-mount it and make it round again since the walls still have some extra meat on them. Also, it'll dry in a few months instead of a few years.
 
It depends somewhat on the wood species, the wall thickness, and the size of the piece. I've not turned much endgrain stuff, but IMO the Anchor Seal is probably not necessary. (Then again, I don't put Anchor Seal on any of my rough turnings. Heck, I've pretty much quit using DNA, too, since I have about the same 90% - 95% success rate without.)

Would you be generous enough to share your rough process? I have a long list of various methods to try but have only turned a small # of bowls so only used the "pack in shavings and wrap in paper" technique which .. worked .. but had some clear downsides (a small amount of mold, took a relatively long time and I wasn't overly enthused with the crack/warp results and this wasn't end grain..).

Bernie: Do you coat the entire bowl or just the outside + end grain like Fred?
 
Ryan, the process I use varies a bit depending on what I'm turning. Over the past couple of years, I've been working my way through a large haul of fresh mesquite. (At least it started out fresh a couple of years ago.) Mesquite is a wonder wood in that it doesn't move much when drying, so I generally turn it close to final dimensions and just let it dry in a paper bag. If it feels pretty dry, I'll often just turn it to finished dimensions and be done with it. If it's pretty damp to the touch, I'll put it in shavings, but if it's just a little moist, I just put it in the bag by itself and forget about it for a month or two. I've even successfully dried a few mesquite pieces by doing nothing more than leaving it sitting on the bench for a few weeks. If I'm turning something that moves more (like walnut or cherry), I'll put some shavings in the bag to help moderate the drying. If it's an important piece, I'll go ahead and put it in my DNA tub, then wrap it in a few layers of newspaper after it has soaked for a day or two. After about a month or so, it's generally dry enough to finish turning it.

Keep in mind that my results in relatively dry Southern California will possibly be different than yours in Oregon. The fact that you had some mold on your wood indicates that your humidity is higher there. In a humid environment, I think the DNA probably helps things dry a bit more quickly. As far as warping and cracking goes, I think that's just a roll of the dice we all take. We walk the fine line between too thick (which makes things more likely to crack) or two thin (which can allow more warpage than can be turned out). I don't really have any hard and fast rules for that...I just play it by feel and experience. The common rule of thumb is leaving the walls about 10% of the bowl diameter, but that's just a guideline. Personally, I've never actually measured the walls or the diameter before deciding it's the right thickness.

More and more though, I'll turn to finished dimensions and just let it do what it wants. Since almost everything I make it done with the intent to display it instead of use it, I usually don't mind some warping and/or cracking. Sometimes the results can be pretty cool. This is a piece of very wet madrone burl that I did that with a few years ago...

HF026 - 01 800.jpg


HF026 - 10 800.jpg
 
Keep in mind that my results in relatively dry Southern California will possibly be different than yours in Oregon. The fact that you had some mold on your wood indicates that your humidity is higher there.

Thanks muchly, good information added to the file (hmm, could make an expert system: if your wood is like this and this and this.. then use this technique for optimal drying probabilities hehe). That's a really pretty piece of madrone! Must have been fun to turn with all the grain changes and well.. madrone :D

I actually attribute the mold mostly to the fact I packed the shavings in to tightly and that they were fresh and basically dripping wet (duh in retrospect, I moved everything and repacked in drier shavings as soon as I noticed it). I'm on the dry side of the state so while its a smidge more humid than so-cal its not a lot (we only get ~15" of rain here).
 
Vaughan,
I have some magnolia and have been learning bowl turning on it. I have turned several small ones ,some end grain and some the regular way. I left a small hollow form sort of thick and saw this morning it had cracked. It had been in a dna bath for 1 1/2 days and then wrapped in a paper bag but it still cracked...Itt had been turned maybe 10 days. ...If you turn the walls thinner is that ok from your experience? I know nothing is written in stone .Im just trying to find what works....I did turn my pieces smaller thinner today and coated them in anchorseal.. Thanks everyone for all the help !!!
 
Mike, in general, thinner walls are less likely to crack, and more likely to warp. And thicker walls might not warp much, but they have a higher chance of cracking. Almost all wood moves some when it dries; if the wood is thin, it's flexible enough to move without cracking. I've not turned any magnolia, but I think it's one of the wood species that likes to move a lot. Hopefully someone who's turned a bunch of it will chime in.

Ryan, the grain changes in that madrone were unnoticeable. Wet madrone turns like butter. :thumb:
 
Drying methods vary and results vary as well depending on the wood, temp etc..... I have tried many different drying methods (DNA,Liquid soap,bagging,boxing,etc...). I think we all settle eventually on what we think works best for us personally. I have a pile of Mesquite and Red Euc turnings both bowls and vessels. Mesquite is as Vaughn said about its stability and drying. Red Euc seems to be more unpredictable and cracks out very easily.

So what I have been doing with the Red Euc (after losing a few) is this::: - turn to completion-thin walled (1/8" give or take) spray in some Mineral Spirits out of a spray bottle while letting it turn at max speed on my Jet Lathe (1200rpms) and then using my air spray nozzle I blast the MS thru the walls of the turning - let it sit and spin for a bit - then do it a couple more times. Wipe it down well - then I put a light sealer coat of sanding sealer on the outside - take it off and put it inside the house in a box on the floor where i can watch them. Let them dry out and eventually take them back to the lathe and finish sand and turn off the bottom to completion. I have about 16 vessels sitting and none of them have cracked or checked and warping seems to be very minimal.

I can not say that it works with everything but for this wood it has done well for me - I think what happens is this: the MS displaces water moisture - The light coat of sanding sealer slows the exterior evaporation and forcing more to dry thru the opening in the vessel or bowl - What i can say is for me it works, its easy and its one method i use frequently
 
Mike, in general, thinner walls are less likely to crack, and more likely to warp. And thicker walls might not warp much, but they have a higher chance of cracking. Almost all wood moves some when it dries; if the wood is thin, it's flexible enough to move without cracking. I've not turned any magnolia, but I think it's one of the wood species that likes to move a lot. Hopefully someone who's turned a bunch of it will chime in.

Ryan, the grain changes in that madrone were unnoticeable. Wet madrone turns like butter. :thumb:

I haven't turned "a bunch", but do have a bunch to turn... local acquaintance moved into a new house and first order of business was to cut down an 18" +/- Magnolia that sat next to his driveway... I've turned about 5 pieces of the tree and you are right about movement... one bowl has a side wall of about 1/4 inch... it's still round and no cracks.... another bowl got thinner walls and it's more of a boat shape than a bowl... the ends where the pith was has peaked, the sides with no pith have moved inward.... still all in all, a nice looking boat bowl.

It's nice smooth, tight grained wood to work with and is supposed to spalt nicely... mine is still relatively green, so no spalting yet.
 
I heard of another guy using mineral spirits on cherry burls. I may give it a try too...Thanks


I use mineral spirits pretty often to run through some of my green woods... I also wipe down with Mineral Spirits after sanding to clean the sanding dust off... (I don't have a compressor yet, so can't blow the dust away)... on greener woods, I'll do Dan and soak a bit of the MS through the walls of the bowl, then let it spin to use centrifugal force to move the spirits through the wood... seems to work on most woods.
 
One thing I forgot to mention that I found works pretty well to stop cracking is if you are leaving the thickness at 10% round over the edges of the rim. That seems to help a bunch when drying and then returning to the lathe to finish. Learned this from Reed Gray and at a demo I attended.
 
Top