Pole frame / Post Frame construction question

Lincoln Myers

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6
Location
Fox River Grove, IL
Hello Family Woodworking members! I feel like I 'know' a LOT of you already, I've been a member over at SMC since Feb. 2003 and was referred over here recently.

I will "some time soon" be building this pole frame shed in my backyard. It is 10x14 and I really like the look of it and the 2 lofts it has for more storage.


I am concerned about the post to ground "joint". I have seen a couple products that intrigue me and wanted to get your thoughts on them.

1. http://www.postprotector.com/products.htm
2. http://www.socketsys.com/index.php?id=svg&goog=product+details#2

One would protect my post from the element/ground/rot etc. and the other would keep all the wood above ground.

Any thoughts on these 2 products or pole-frame construction in general would be appreciated.

-Linc
 

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lincoln, glad you found us!
personally i`m against setting posts in the ground unless they`re treated with creasote like phone poles.....so given your two choices i`d opt for #2....tod
 
lincoln, glad you found us!
personally i`m against setting posts in the ground unless they`re treated with creasote like phone poles.....so given your two choices i`d opt for #2....tod

welcome lincoln join on in and have fun with us and learn too:) andtod you mentioned posts in the ground not being in your favor are refering to the new green stuff as well?
 
larry-n-lincoln, the "green" stuff from the borgs ain`t creasote! supposedly it`ll do okay in the ground if it`s kept relatively dry? if you want to sink wood into dirt or concrete that`s intended to support a building, even a shed, i`d use a minimum of 6x6 and do all you`re able to keep it dry....pouring sonotubes with concrete is more work but mounting the treated posts to steel ties imbeded in the concrete (up above ground level) is the best move...tod
 
A bit extra on the green stuff. You are in Illinois and shouldn't have the insect/rot problems we do further south. Where I am, in northern Arkansas, a deck made with treated lumber has a 20 to 30 life expectancy. Untreated is 5 to 15 years. My house has deck posts set in the ground with concrete. The house is about 12 years old and the wood shows absolute no signs of going bad on me.
 
Hi Lincoln,

Simpson also makes stuff like the second choice, you could have a look at their website or your local borg for a few ideas. The first one is interesting, and might work, but I'm not sure I'd want to play guinea pig myself. Best thing is to keep the wood away from the ground. The trouble with PT lumber is they keep having to change the formula of the preservatives in an attempt to reduce its toxicity- and unfortunately, this tends to reduce its effectiveness. The latest green stuff is called ACQ- its some kind of copper compound and is reported to be kinda hard on fasteners. Be aware also, that if you have to cut a PT post for inside the structure, put the cut end up. Not all species will be treated through the core of the wood, so you may be cutting off your protection.

John
 
Hi Lincoln,

Simpson also makes stuff like the second choice, you could have a look at their website or your local borg for a few ideas. The first one is interesting, and might work, but I'm not sure I'd want to play guinea pig myself. Best thing is to keep the wood away from the ground. The trouble with PT lumber is they keep having to change the formula of the preservatives in an attempt to reduce its toxicity- and unfortunately, this tends to reduce its effectiveness. The latest green stuff is called ACQ- its some kind of copper compound and is reported to be kinda hard on fasteners. Be aware also, that if you have to cut a PT post for inside the structure, put the cut end up. Not all species will be treated through the core of the wood, so you may be cutting off your protection.

John

For the cut ends, you can buy, (in some places) the coating to paint on the fresh cuts, (and should do so following the directions for number of coats).
 
First off, welcome. Next before you go and buy any type of fastener, call your local building inspector. In my area we need a 6" bed of gravel then a suno tube fill with concrete. Most of them fasters are not meant to hold up a building. If you want to help keep the post from becoming rotten taper the top of the concrete away form the pole. As far as the treatment, you can soak the pole in that stuff for a few days to further let it soak in.
Al
 
Post Protector- A simple way to prevent post decay

Gentlemen, I would like to clarify an often misunderstood issue- Post Decay.

If you are doing a Pole Building or any "post in the ground" project, Post Protector is a "barrier system" that protects your post from decay.
The material, virgin HDPE, is the same material used to manufacture landfill liners & has 450 years of geo-application life. This material is unaffected by all those things that can potentially cause decay; varied soil types, moisture, concrete encasement, insects, micro organisms & animal waste.
Post Protector has a simple slide on application & retains typical construction technique; typical post hole, footing, backfill. This means you are utilizing the structural muscle of the post vs. a post bolted to a steel bracket above grade.
Besides post protection, Post Protector also provides it's own uplift protection (no re bar or blocking needed)& eliminates chemical leaching into ground water & soil.
It is important that you understand what decay is. In order to have decay you must have (4) conditions present:

1) Moisture, and specifically, the wood fiber to it's saturation point

2) Oxygen

3) Temperature range of 40-100 degrees

4) AN EXPOSED, AVAILABLE FOOD SOURCE (THE POST) so that the living micro organisms, abundant in soil, can colonize the post using the wood fiber as a food source.

If you can eliminate any one of these conditions, you can eliminate post decay.

Post Protector is a barrier system so the micro organisms can't get to the post.
Any other questions www.postprotector.com 877-WONT ROT


Thanks, Ken McDonnell
 
welcome ken!
please help me understand how a plastic sleeve that would in effect hold moisture against wood could prevent rot? in the picture lincoln linked to the plastic appears to be corrugated which would permit easier entry and evaporation of water but would serve to direct water to the ends of the wood cell structure as well where it would wick up the post....gravity ya` know...
the common sence in me says to keep the endgrain from comming in contact with moisture for longivity....
is there something i`m missing?
 
welcome ken!
please help me understand how a plastic sleeve that would in effect hold moisture against wood could prevent rot? in the picture lincoln linked to the plastic appears to be corrugated which would permit easier entry and evaporation of water but would serve to direct water to the ends of the wood cell structure as well where it would wick up the post....gravity ya` know...
the common sence in me says to keep the endgrain from comming in contact with moisture for longivity....
is there something i`m missing?

I don't understand that either. But, the ad does say, "Continuous post venting system allows the post to breathe ". Still, to me, it looks like the top of the plastic sleeve permits an entry for water and then it would be held inside to attack the post. Call me skeeptikcal. But, I wouldn't use it. If a 20 year post rots in ten years, any warranty wouldn't be very helpful at that point.
 
Looks to me like the sleeve has corrigations that would presumably allow the bulk of the moisture to escape upwards-- assuming the structure itself is well vented. I'd guess the product would work better than dropping treated wood in the concrete, but I think I'd still take the conservative path and keep the post away from the ground.
 
Post Protector has a bottom & slides over the post. It is 5' in length. Typical Post Frame construction calls for a 4' post hole with a 6" footing. So 3' 6" of the post & protector are in the ground. That leaves 18" of the Post Protector above grade. After stone & concrete floor, the Post Protector is commonly 10"-12" above finished floor- inside the building! Decay typically starts @ grade where ALL the conditions for decay are present. With a Post Protector in place, no moist soil contacts the post, no rain/storm water puddles against the post,no ground contact so micro organisms, abundant in soil, can't get to the post.
 
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