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new year challenge-- brent vrs jim

Here I Are Again,

This is a green wood greenie question:

Look at pics then proceed---I have reduced the diameter about 3/32 and I still have these imperfections. How deep do they usually go? I assume they are there from the original rough turning (to make the piece cylindrical).

My plans are:
Easily changed
To make the walls basically vertical (cylindrical). The top will NOT be a nice uniform circle (like a halo). It will undulate (like the wall of China) as the limits of the wood dictates.
No bark will remain
To make a 5 ilnch foot 1/4 to 5/16 high
To make the inside of the bowl a cylindrical cavity with slight cove between horiz. and vert.
To, at least look at it, with 1 inch thick walls and almost flat top.

I am absolutely sure that more questions will appear. So in the meantime you can quiver in fear of what I will ask in the next, "Here I Are Again."

Enjoy,
JimB
 

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Jim,
In addition to some drying cracks, that looks like end grain tear out to me. Shear cutting rather than scraping should help eliminate that. It does look like that crack goes all the way through the blank...at least on one side. If the crack is on the other side of the blank too, you need to be very careful. I rescue bad wood like some people rescue puppies. You can turn this blank but be very attentive in your gluing. Thin CA followed by medium in a crack this large. As you get close to final thickness, maybe some finely ground coffee stuffed into the crack for looks before you add the CA. Might even be a candidate for a couple of little butterfly crack bridges like they use on tables. Stay out of the line of fire , no matter what.
 
Ted,

In an earlier post on this thread you can see that the crack does go all of the way through. What I was surprised by was the "scrapings" that have an apparently deep bottom.

Yes I stay out of the line of fire. Glenn would shoot me if I did any thing dangerous (Lucky for me he was not around when I got married)

I pour CA in the "all of the way through" crack quite often---at a minimum CA goes in every time I cut down through what was put in the crack "a little while ago." After putting in the CA I go read a couple pages in my book, or go get coffee, or go to the bathroom, etc. to give it a little extra time to set.

A little bit aside here: I sure like the Bionic face shield I purchased a few weeks ago. With the shields I had in the past, I could not wait to get them off. With the Bionic, I forget I have it on---that can be messy if I try to take a swallow of coffee. DAMHIKT. If I/you/or anybody else uses a Bionic shield they will have to wear earplugs because the shield also covers your ears and a headset noise protection device cannot be put on. This is NO problem for me, except for the extra 15 seconds it takes to put the earplugs on. The advantages far outweigh that negative.

Enjoy,
JimB
 
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A few thoughts, but these are just personal opinions, not rules by any means...

Don't make it cylindrical. Cylindrical bowls look like dog dishes in my jaded opinion. The closer to bowl-shaped you make it, the more chance you'll turn away some of those cracks, too.

Another personal preference is to not have a foot. And if I did, it would be smaller than 5" in diameter. Mine would likely be in the 3" range, and no more than 1/4" high.

1" thick walls will look pretty chunky. I'd try to go thinner. Oops, I forgot, this is still somewhat green wood. If you're planning to rough turn, then re-turn after it has dried, 3/4" to 1" walls should be OK. If you're turning to final dimensions now, I'd go thinner.

CA alone will help reinforce the cracks. I'm not real fond of coffee grounds and CA, but once again, that's me. Your tastes may vary and be just as valid as mine. ;) (Of course Ted's tastes don't count, because I just don't trust them blond-haired hippie folks.) :rofl:

I agree with Ted...from the looks of the pics you've just got two cracks (and nothing that I'd be real worried about quite yet). The rest is just end grain tearout that will go away with shearing cuts...or the 80 grit gouge, if need be. Once the wood is dry, it'll be a bit easier to get a clean cut on the end grain.
 
Vaughn McMillan said:
Another personal preference is to not have a foot. And if I did, it would be smaller than 5" in diameter. Mine would likely be in the 3" range, and no more than 1/4" high.
Click to expand...

Wondering why don't you like having a foot on them? My limited experience is that it aids in stability when its sitting there, but for a regular bowl I'd make it pretty low profile (1/4" does sound that high). I suppose it sort of depends on how it fits in with the rest of the bowl?

Vaughn McMillan said:
(Of course Ted's tastes don't count, because I just don't trust them blond-haired hippie folks.) :rofl:
Click to expand...

Boy a lot of us are in trouble then :rofl:
 
Ryan Mooney said:
Wondering why don't you like having a foot on them? ...
Click to expand...

Strictly personal preference. ;) Since I seldom make bowls for actual use (other than to maybe hold a display of fruit), I usually don't worry much about stability. They still have a foot (of sorts) on them so there's a flat spot for them to sit on, but it's usually just a simple concave depression on the bottom of the bowl...a place to put my initials, the date, and the wood species.
 
OK, the crotch is winning. The section is approx. 8 inches thick on one side and approx. 2 inches thick on the other. As you can well imagine, this does not make for the greatest balance on the lathe. My lathe, bench, etc. have worked great for the small, reasonably balanced, pieces I have done in the past.

However, the imbalance causes my lathe to move to and fro, like doing the mambo. By using the Easy Wood turning tools, I was able to make the wood round. However, this was at a heavy price. Since the EW tools are basically scrapers they created very significant tear-out. (1) But when I try to use a gouge to get a cutting action, I get catches and gouges (2) in the wood. When the wood is moving “fro,” all is fine. When the wood moves “to” the tool digs in. I cannot seem to control it. I have tried very tiny bites. I cannot try faster speed (My slowest speed is 250 rpm and I have a lot of wiggle. At 300 rpm the bench is hopping off of the floor slightly.).

My bench is of the Larry Merlau variety---“If in doubt, build it stout.” It is well braced. The legs are, in effect, 4x4s; all of the rest of the structure is 2x4s. All joints are Original Titebond glue and McFeeley woodscrews. I do not have any room to add weight in the form of steel plates, bags of sand, concrete bags, or whatever.

Finally I get to my question. How would you fasten the bench to the floor in such a manner that the plugs won’t just work loose from the concrete because of the pounding?

I am guessing heavy steel angle brackets about 6 inches per leg, bolted through the legs (any suggestions here?). But what kind of anchors do I put in the garage floor? I am wide open to any suggestions, tales of success, tales of woe, or whatever.

(1) All the Easy Wood tools did was to reduce the diameter of the turning accompanied by making the tear-out worse in the end grain of the crotch as it came past the tool.

Please understand I do not dislike the Easy Wood tools. They are great for someone just beginning turning; their learning curve is very easy and they are safer than other tools for a beginner. They are not a waste of money as the turner advances because they will continue to be used along with the other tools a turner accumulates.

(2) I wonder if that is where the tool got its name---from creating “gouges” while doing “catches?”

Pic 1: The bench and lathe
Pic 2: The tearout
Pic 3: The place to relax your eyeballs

Enjoy,

JimB
 

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Jim....I feel your pain, but before I went to all that trouble of bolting down my bench I'd throw a couple of 80 pound bags of sand on top of the bench behind the lathe just to get you through this challenge. It's time to switch to a good bowl gouge to get rid of the tear out. Do you know how to shear scrape?
 
At this point (while the wood is still somewhat green and soft) I wouldn't sweat the tearout. Pretend it's not there. You can fix it later, when you do the finish turning. It's more important at this stage to get the bowl somewhere near its final shape so it can dry evenly (helps avoid cracking). Once you get the wood drier and the piece more balanced, you'll be able to increase the speed and get a cleaner cut. Getting a clean cut on an unbalanced piece at 250 rpm is not easy...at least not for me The EZ tools seem to cut better at higher RPMs, but obviously the lathe has to be able to handle the speed. I'd recommend against trying to anchor the bench just yet. If the lathe is solidly anchored, the stresses will be redirected at something else...like the headstock bearings. Once the piece is closer to final shape (and lighter in weight), you'll be able to increase the speed. :thumb:
 
On the subject of bowl gouges, do you have any that are bigger than the 3/8" Thompson? Especially for a piece that big, I'd recommend a 1/2" or 5/8" gouge.

Man. I wish I wasn't 800 miles east of you right now. ;)
 
Vaughn McMillan said:
On the subject of bowl gouges, do you have any that are bigger than the 3/8" Thompson? Especially for a piece that big, I'd recommend a 1/2" or 5/8" gouge.

Man. I wish I wasn't 800 miles east of you right now. ;)
Click to expand...

"...do you have any that are bigger than the 3/8 inch Thompson?" No.
"...Man. I wish I wasn't 800 miles east of you right now." SO DO I !!!

Ted said, "Jim....I feel your pain, but before I went to all that trouble of bolting down my bench I'd throw a couple of 80 pound bags of sand on top of the bench behind the lathe just to get you through this challenge. It's time to switch to a good bowl gouge to get rid of the tear out. Do you know how to shear scrape?"

Ted, I could not set even one bag of sand on my lathe bench. The photo above sort of gives the wrong impression. The last 9" on the right end of the bench (where the lathe tools are sticking up vertically) is only 3/8 inch, unsupported, cheap particle board. The bench is only 17 inches front to back. The head end of the lathe takes up (I did no go down and measure) over 12 inches of that. The vertical sheet with the tools and stuff is not behind the bench, it is mounted to the bench and is one side of my sheet goods storage.

I do have a 65 pound, 1" thick, 16"x16" piece of steel that I could slide onto the bench, under the right half of the lathe. I cannot put it under the drive end of the lathe (where it should go to take the best advantage of the laws of physics), the motor is there. I will see if I can hang any other weight on the outside surface of the legs. I am short on dense, heavy material. I could try a scrap metal yard to see what they have.

I do not even know what the term "shear scrape" means, let alone know how to do it. It sounds like a scraper used at an angle to the line of rotation. I do have a 3/8" thick by 1 1/4" wide, Doug Thompson square end, scraper. I have a much lighter HF scraper also. However, I have the feeling that you are talking about the use of a large spindle gouge. My largest spindle gouge is a 1" HF.

I think my eldest son, Greg, hits it when he says, "Dad. Nothing is ever simple."

Enjoy,
JimB
 
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Jim, there are at least a couple of ways to "shear scrape" (or "sheer scrape", depending on who's talking), or make a "shearing cut". One with a scraper, and the other with a bowl gouge.

Here are a couple of videos to show what I mean...

John Lucas with a scraper...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oeiVQLeOd4

Lyle Jameison with a bowl gouge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDIvtr7StuA

In any case, making a shearing cut is gonna be tough at 250 rpm. Like I said, don't worry about the tearout until you get closer to the final dimensions and can up the speed a few notches. :thumb:
 
Jim, I feel your pain!

However I gotta say that this is an excellent set of lessons for the rest of us as well, so we appreciate you working through this with us.

You might try cutting back some of the excess wood off of the thick side with the piece off of the lathe, you could use the drill press and just hog a bit of it off with a forstner and overlapping holes or even just clamp is in your bench vise and use a wood chisel to hog a bit off (I would leave at least a good solid inch, probably two of wiggle room and not get overly aggressive about removing wood this way because - well lets say I've gone a bit to far before...). If you can get it balanced a bit better I suspect things will start smoothing out, might not even take a whole lot to get it lathable..
 
Jim,
Vaughn's video links are perfect for the shear scrape, and he's right about not worrying about tear out until you get closer to finishing, but every blank is a training opportunity, so take advantage of the spin and try a little shear scraping as you go along. It won't be very effective because the process needs higher rpm's than you are generating right now, it's just to get a feel for the motion and see the kind of fine curlies that John Lucas talks about. When you get to the finishing stage you will have had some practice. I still think you need to get some temporary weight on that lathe. Every bit of weight will give you more rpm's and easier cutting with all of your tools. Looking at your set up and from what you describe maybe get a simple tie down strap with hooks on the end, loop it over the head stock as shown and suspend a couple of kitty litter buckets full of sand from the end. Wet sand would be even heavier. Put the tops on to avoid a mess. Would that work for you?
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