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cant build a box for profit

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allen levine

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I wanted to see if I set up my jigs, used different routers, all set for same sized box, if I would be able to mass produce enough boxes for craft show(not me, I wont sit, but someone would sell with their goods and take a small percentage)to make it worth it for me.

so these are simple boxes, lift off lid. Im not a great box maker,never claimed to be, but they are square and the top fits.
Everything is simple so it can be made quickly with few setups. I havent glued the lid pulls on. Just experimenting with some scraps.

I wouldnt make one or two, Id make 20 at a time.

So heres my numbers-
cost of material-7.00-14.00 each box.
Labor-when all is set up, using different routers for each step, so only have to set up everything once, Id estimate approx 2 hours per box, without finishing.

Finishing would be a tung oil mixture with a nice sheen.

So tacking on a couple of bucks for each box for overhead, the cost of maintaining my tools and running electricity and heat/ac etc......and making a fair wage, I just dont see people paying 75.00 and up for these boxes. No way.

It was an experiment, I used 4 different routers and have them all set now, and kept all measurements handy. but I wont pursue woodworking for profit with small crafts.
Dont know how anyone can make any profit(On small items like this) unless they work for12.00 dollars an hour.

and Im not trying to be a negative person here, I just dont see how it can be done in a home shop .

(these pics, only sanded to 80 grit, no finish, lid pulls arent glued on, wrong angle on pics, the sides are walnut, box on right was one that I didnt toss, its just ash and spanish cedar lid, 2 other boxes I had to toss)

the last pic is just how I double tape the sides together, cut patterns on paper, spray adhesive to side, then cut on bandsaw 2 at a time for uniformity.
 

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Well Allen the last guy I saw selling boxes didn't have one under $100.00 Most where $175.00 seemed as though he was selling them but he was also in a high class craft event that the spots run $2,500.00 for the week and you have to belong to the club plus give them a % of your sales. He was right next to the guy with the 5K desk
 
After saying that I can barely get 65 for my mugs at the events I show at.:doh: But I can sell 40 dollar cutting boards all day long.:thumb:
 
I've had a booth at a small town festival for the last 20 years. Selling wood projects has never been a money maker. I used to make these pine wooden roll top trunks that were (in my opionon) not too bad. I probably had about $20.00 just in material in each one. Each one would take me about 6-8 hours to build (maybe I'm just slow) I priced them at only $40.00 and people would pick up the price tag and say out loud....OMG I would never pay that! I would just smile and hope they walked away. The next person would walk up and look at the tag and say.....now thats not bad! I sold many of them over the years. The higher I raised the price the less I sold. This is a small country town not high end....the money is just not there for expensive wares.

Here is one my wife has in our front room stuffed with her bears.
box.jpg

This booth is more of a social gathering and fun event to do.
 
I experimented with cutting boards a while back. Without a second cut, just glueing up strips, I can make cutting boards in approx 1 hour 30 minutes each one, from start to final oiling.
(total time put in estimated since I cant finish them in one day with glueup and oiling)
40 dollars is just about making the 25 dollar an hour, more like 20 an hour, and if one has to pay for booth, gasoline, setup and breakdown time, I think Id have to move 20 boards a day to make it worth it.
But this is my estimates. If I had other items where I could make big bucks with, Id fill a booth with less profitable items just to have a variety.
 
tom, you say you were working for 2.50 an hour? is that what IM reading?
20 bucks material, 8 hours work, 40 dollar price?

I understand the entire social thing, and I understand people saying, well, it just trickles in some money for the other projects I like to make, etc...and so on.....

but, underpricing items, for me, it makes zero sense.

I value my time, and whatever tiny skill I have, and Ive made quite a large investment into my tools. And since its only a hobby for me, if I ever wanted to make a go at earning some money, I certainly wont underprice and work for peanuts.
 
Chuck Thoits said:
Well Allen the last guy I saw selling boxes didn't have one under $100.00 Most where $175.00 seemed as though he was selling them but he was also in a high class craft event that the spots run $2,500.00 for the week and you have to belong to the club plus give them a % of your sales. He was right next to the guy with the 5K desk
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If I thought I could get 150-175 dollars for that box I posted there, Id hire a few assistants and bang them out all day long.
Ive seen boxes at some decent shows, like in Rhinebeck NY, a huge show in may.(dutchess county fair grounds?)
But those boxes had inlays, hinges, but still didnt think they were in the 175 dollar range.
 
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Allen, Is that one of those new fangled "D" ring router handles in that router bit case in the first pic? ;)

I think Chuck hit the nail on the head, just have to find the right show/clients that have deep pockets. Also comes down to marketing to the customer as to what they may use it for, some folks just have no vision. Might be able to spend a couple of extra bucks at the dollar store for some crafty paper and pen to sell as a writing box, or sewing store for some kind of craft box.
 
I've talked with a couple of people showing wood items at craft shows. Nothing expensive and nothing that an average woodworker couldn't make. When I asked how they make a profit by selling at the prices they do, the answer was simple. They use their woodcraft "business" to pay for trips all over the country. All they have to do is break even at the end of the year and they've had a bunch of "free" vacations. Just sayin'.....
 
Bill Arnold said:
I've talked with a couple of people showing wood items at craft shows. Nothing expensive and nothing that an average woodworker couldn't make. When I asked how they make a profit by selling at the prices they do, the answer was simple. They use their woodcraft "business" to pay for trips all over the country. All they have to do is break even at the end of the year and they've had a bunch of "free" vacations. Just sayin'.....
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I think alot of people might be fibbin.

If anyone thinks of it as a business, you have to factor in the amount of time put in.

Once you set up a booth, the clock is ticking. While I dont have a tremendous social life, I dont need to sit in a woodworking booth waiting for someone to come over to talk to me.
Whether youre a craftsman, a salesperson, or a shipper, if you consider it a business, you need to get paid for time.
Gasoline, tolls, expensive food, hotels, booth costs all cut into the bottom line when you attend a show if it isnt close enough to drive home every night.

I will, and already have, made products for no profit, and donated them for good causes. I will continue to do this as long as Im healthy enough to woodwork.
one would be amazed how difficult it is sometimes to make things for charity and all the logistics? invovled with contacting the right people and all that jazz.
I also make things for free for people who I like, most recently, a few weeks ago, I made a few boards for my daughters roommate who is giving them out in a basket at her wedding or shower, not sure which one.
 
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allen levine said:
tom, you say you were working for 2.50 an hour? is that what IM reading?
20 bucks material, 8 hours work, 40 dollar price?
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Well...yes. However, look at it a different way. I spend time doing what I like to do....woodworking. I enjoy a social event that many of our family and friends attend and at the end of the day I end up with a couple hundred dollars to spend....the day did not cost me one dime. How many people take a Saturday and go fishing or play a round of golf and do it for free. Not many. I have no intent on making money....I have a job....if I can get my hobby to pay for itself....I'm money ahead....even if it's only a dollar.
Another example.....I like to turn pens. Some people sell their pens for big profit. I've never been able to sell pens for a high profit. I can maybe double the cost of the kit and blank. To me that pays because it allows me the money to buy more pen kits and keep doing it...just because I enjoy doing it.
 
I worked as a sole proprietor of a woodworking business for 2 dozen years. I found it necessary to be innovative. The pieces I sold ran no less than 4 figures and often 5 figures. It was a good year when the shop paid for itself. I put beans on the table by teaching (think James Krenov) and did woodworking shows (think Norm Abrams). I invented jigs that I made and sold. I wrote a book. I held classes in my shop in addition to teaching in a college. Virtually every professional woodworker I ever met had more than one way to bring in money. Often it was a spouse who held a job that paid a salary and offered benefits for the family. Do what you enjoy and money often follows. Do it for the money and risk disappointment and the loss of enjoyment. Just sayin...
 
The most money I made from my woodworking shop was the tax write-off I got every year for showing a business loss. ;)

When I started doing the art show thing, I had a full time job, so making money with my shop wasn't all that important. Like Tom, I got my satisfaction from making things...getting paid for them was a fringe benefit. I also enjoyed the social aspect and camaraderie of the shows. But when I lost my job and tried to make an actual living with the lathe, it didn't take me long to figure out that it wasn't likely to put much food on the table.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Carol Reed said:
I worked as a sole proprietor of a woodworking business for 2 dozen years. I found it necessary to be innovative. The pieces I sold ran no less than 4 figures and often 5 figures. It was a good year when the shop paid for itself. I put beans on the table by teaching (think James Krenov) and did woodworking shows (think Norm Abrams). I invented jigs that I made and sold. I wrote a book. I held classes in my shop in addition to teaching in a college. Virtually every professional woodworker I ever met had more than one way to bring in money. Often it was a spouse who held a job that paid a salary and offered benefits for the family. Do what you enjoy and money often follows. Do it for the money and risk disappointment and the loss of enjoyment. Just sayin...
Click to expand...

Now that's some wisdom. Right there. Did you read it?
 
The first show I did I made $500 in 4hrs...I was so excited I started thinking I could make it big. The next 2 shows I made a total of $100 in over 15hrs in the booth. Back to reality...:doh:I think Carol is spot on...you have to be innovative for sure. I'll keep my full time job for as long as they'll have me. :rolleyes:

Tom is on to something as well...I enjoy making what I make, and if selling a few things helps my tool budget I'm happy. Like I said, I'm back in reality!
 
carol-your statement makes total sense, solid, but my point is that if and when one chooses to do woodworking for a living, the harsh reality is that unless you have clients rolling in or waiting for you, there better be another way to put food on your table.
Brent-I never doubt carols wisdom, especially when it comes to woodworking, being a veteran as she is, but its not wether or not I enjoy what Im doing, I specifically wanted to do it for a profit, but I just dont see how its possible.

Tom-having met you, I can say you are a true gentleman, a good person, but I totally disagree with you and Jeff and many others here about just making enough money to support your hobby using your hobby.
I understand its doing something you enjoy doing. But my point of this thread is that if Im looking to make money and turn over a profit using my woodworking, I just dont see how its possible making boxes or other small items.

I wont support my hobby by using my hobby to underpay what I feel my skill or knowledge is worth. It makes little sense to me.
If someone can make 10 times more an hour at the regular job, I feel work 3 hours extra a week and support your hobby for a lifetime of enjoyment, and not worry about wether or not the few cents you can bring in over your costs will pay for another tool.

I understand my views are not popular here, being many attend shows and sell their products.
 
It's a good point to bring up Allen, I've not seen a good way to make a living at doing small projects at shows or for commissions with the folks I've been approached by. I have been watching to see if anyone had anything to share that I hadn't already thought of. I have a couple of products that I could possibly produce using a CNC router, either doing kits or final products that may bring in some income, but it wouldn't be at shows. It would be items to sell to retail stores and online, but even then, I don't really want to mix my hobby with being a job.

I did stained glass as a hobby several years back. My wife had decided to change careers (100% commission) and to make some extra income I thought I might try to sell my wares. I had much of the same experience with buyers not wanting to drop the coin for hand made items. I had to drop my prices so low on lights that I was barely making $5 profit on each. It came down to me filling orders just to get my investment back to pay some bills with. In addition, doing something I enjoyed became a thing I did not. I still have a hard time doing the glass work, but do want to get back into doing some.
 
allen levine said:
Brent-I never doubt carols wisdom, especially when it comes to woodworking, being a veteran as she is, but its not wether or not I enjoy what Im doing, I specifically wanted to do it for a profit, but I just dont see how its possible.
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I wasn't really referring to you directly with that Allen. I can see how that might have come off wrong. The point that I liked was that it wasn't just one thing that Carol did. It was a whole combination of things that allowed her to work.

Perhaps a small finely made box is akin to a calling card that might open doors. So, no, just making boxes might not be profitable, but perhaps making a lot of boxes, coming up with a unique design, styles, purposes, training others how to do it, publishing a book. It would not be easy for sure.

allen levine said:
I understand my views are not popular here, being many attend shows and sell their products.
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You come at things with the view of someone who ran a successful business for many years. I'm sure that flavors your view of things.

There are many things we do as hobbyists that make no sense from a business perspective.

I think your opinion is probably right on the money, though, for many of us.

Have you done the cost analysis on your adirondack chairs and tables?

I'm not sure you are really looking to turn your hobby into a business, but maybe there are other products you produce that are profitable according to your figures?
 
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