cant build a box for profit

...If someone can make 10 times more an hour at the regular job, I feel work 3 hours extra a week and support your hobby for a lifetime of enjoyment, and not worry about wether or not the few cents you can bring in over your costs will pay for another tool...

That makes a lot of sense. ;) However, one of the reasons I got started selling my turnings is because I was running out of horizontal surfaces in the house to put them all. I could give them away (and do, in some cases), but I don't have enough friends to take all of them off my hands. :D
 
Making a living at woodworking for a solo shop is, in my humble, but experienced opinion, a pipe dream. Making a living means to make enough to pay bills, put food on the table, put some aside for a rainy day, plus getting a return on the shop investment, a tool acquisition/replacement budget, space, utilities, etc. If making a living at this is the goal, then diversify. Look at every woodworking related product/service the compliments what you really want to do.

A few minutes ago I spoke with a man about building a custom cabinet for the church. Most of the conversation was about how he built cabinets, dismissing the features I wanted for a variety of reasons. Having built cabinets, I understood where he was coming from. But the point is the customer's desires were being blown off. Guess who won't get the job.

The point? The customer is king or queen. Listen carefully to what they want. And provide it at a fair price. They'll decide if that's what they are willing to pay. Don't build it until you have a signed contract and a deposit that covers the materials.

As for making small items. My jigs were small. Packaging for shipping and retail wwas very expensive. One is to protect the product. The other is to market the product. Solo shops tend to put there stuff out there and hope the customer can see the benefits. Not true. Darren is right. Customers have no vision. That's why demos of products sell way more many products than do static displays. Lots of lots of photos. A video loop running on a large flat screen where people can see. Developing these things takes bucks, lots of them. And all the must be folded into the selling price. I could go on, but you'll get bored.
 
Tom-having met you, I can say you are a true gentleman, a good person, but I totally disagree with you and Jeff and many others here about just making enough money to support your hobby using your hobby.
I understand its doing something you enjoy doing. But my point of this thread is that I'm Im looking to make money and turn over a profit using my woodworking, I judon'tont see how its possible making boxes or other small items.

Allen, actually we are not in disagreement at all. I think I was misunderstood. I do not make any wood crafts with the intent of trying to make money to support my hobby. However I have made things that I have sold in a booth at a craft sale. I have a job and make money to do the things I want to do.
I'm going to go out on a limb here......I followed your thread recently when you remodeled your sons kitchen. After all the time you put into that project I'm guessing your son showed his appreciation by either a few dollars or maybe he took you out for a fine meal. Whatever.........the point is that any compensation he did or didn't give you did not equal what a full time carpenter gets paid. So does that mean that you should not have taken on the job unless you got paid full wages....of course not. Sometimes we just like to work with our hands and wood. If in the process someone gives us a couple dollars for our efforts then thats more than you had or expected to get....even if it's a fraction of real wages.
Allen I agree with you that making items for the purpose of selling them is not going to pay you a full wage. Sometimes the reward is simply having someone appreciate your work enough to want to own it.
 
I believe being in the right place at the right time helps alot.
Not to mention alot of luck.

Truer words were never spoken. I'm sure we have all seen a woodworker, musician, painter, sculptor, whatever who really "outta be in pictures" but, remains little known and far from a household name. I realize this doesn't go to the heart of the thread's purpose but, maybe as a point of interest . . . I get a decent price for my goods primarily because I am unwilling to give up my time for less. If I can't make what my efforts are worth to me, I will spend the time making furnishings for my house ;-) This certainly doesn't help me make a living from my craft but, maybe someday . . . .
 
not the same tom, me working for my children vs. me trying to sell something I know I probably wont make money on.

There is no better reward for me when it comes to woodworking than making something for a family member that I know they need or will use for a lifetime.

I cant put a price on that, money or profit means nothing.

My son does all my electrical work, all my computer repairs, my heavy lifting, and 600 other things for me, its not about repayment or anything else.

its family. I didnt expect to make money, I didnt expect to break even, I did expect to spend a small fortune and challenge myself .

And as much as I never want to do it again, Im sure if my daughter purchases a house, Id suffer and do it all over again, as long as Im vertical.
 
well i have been listening to all of your comments and it rings real loud and reminds me of some of the people i have met in the tours and how they are or arent doing.. just this wknd i had a question on a cabinet job i have to do for a client and i was trying to place the hardware order.. and needed some info i forgot to get from the client.. the knob style and color... well i had to leave a message did so and he called back a little later during that time i had some less than enjoyable shop time,,, enter in what ever you feel like that qualifies as a bad day.. anyway he says he was thinking square and brushed nickle,, i told him tht round would be better thant square and chatte for just a short bit and said i needed to get back to it.. i no sooner got of the phone and realized i messed up big time.. so i found a link to the suplier i was using and to there selection of brushed nickle knobs, SQUARE and round.. called them up and told them i had sent a email with the link that had way to many for me to choose from and that they had square and rounds one both, and asked them to pick what they wanted and get back to me the next day and apologized for being short and said i got threw my head ache.. bottom line is i had missed one more piece of the sales pie, let alone missing a part of the finishing that i had not figured.. all the time you deal with a client, the design with and after you talk with them all is coming out of the price.. there are many things that need to be looked at when trying to make a dollar at this.. those that are getting so much for there time are sometimes doing better than the folks doing it for a set price. carol has more wisdom than most of us will ever have.
 
I've seen a guy selling boxes that he probably did ok on. High end humidors and small boxes out of rosewood, mahogany, ebony... $400 to $700 range. It's a small market but probably profitable, nobody wanting something like that will buy it at Walmart or amazon I doubt.

The best craft show item I've seen was driftwood bird houses. The guy doing them had a very good eye for picking out pieces. Cut the front and back, peg and hole, cut a bevel on one side of each roof piece or a slab roof. The rest was all natural edged, unfinished driftwood. Some copper nails in a few. He was getting 75 to 150 each, and sold a lot from the sold tags hanging on pieces. Way more than the guys selling the generic craft painted ones for $50 each from what I saw.
 
jeb, there are guys Im sure that make money selling their products, but its not the norm in my opinion.

I guess when it comes to woodworking, I tend to always see the glass as half full. Business today is hard enough. There are plenty of great posts, and it alot of that works great in theory, but its nitty gritty out there, and trying to make a go of it takes a ton of patience, a ton of perserverance, dedication, etc......

Once someone crosses that line, and decides its time to sell something for profit, I guess we all have our own goals.
 
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We have a guy here in town that up until a few years ago was a painter. He went out and got him self a lathe and now is selling a ton of stuff UPS is there every day picking up. I have no idea how he went for nobody to selling enough stuff that he needs to ship daily but he did. Ok well I have one idea but the law would no approve.
 
not the same tom, me working for my children vs. me trying to sell something I know I probably wont make money on.

There is no better reward for me when it comes to woodworking than making something for a family member that I know they need or will use for a lifetime.

I cant put a price on that, money or profit means nothing.

My son does all my electrical work, all my computer repairs, my heavy lifting, and 600 other things for me, its not about repayment or anything else.

its family. I didnt expect to make money, I didnt expect to break even, I did expect to spend a small fortune and challenge myself .

And as much as I never want to do it again, Im sure if my daughter purchases a house, Id suffer and do it all over again, as long as Im vertical.

Even if you eliminate the intangibles, the DIY aspect of those jobs provides quite a bit of profit to you and your family. The basement bar, the kitchen, the attic room. The bed frames. You made money doing those items your self. You couldn't pay someone to do those to your standards with your materials. Well, you could pay some one, but it would be a lot. By the time you add up the costs of those projects, I'd be willing to bet you paid for a bunch of your tools.

We have a guy here in town that up until a few years ago was a painter. He went out and got him self a lathe and now is selling a ton of stuff UPS is there every day picking up. I have no idea how he went for nobody to selling enough stuff that he needs to ship daily but he did. Ok well I have one idea but the law would no approve.

I'm guessing it must be a niche product ... :rolleyes:
 
I worked as a sole proprietor of a woodworking business for 2 dozen years. I found it necessary to be innovative. The pieces I sold ran no less than 4 figures and often 5 figures. It was a good year when the shop paid for itself. I put beans on the table by teaching (think James Krenov) and did woodworking shows (think Norm Abrams). I invented jigs that I made and sold. I wrote a book. I held classes in my shop in addition to teaching in a college. Virtually every professional woodworker I ever met had more than one way to bring in money. Often it was a spouse who held a job that paid a salary and offered benefits for the family. Do what you enjoy and money often follows. Do it for the money and risk disappointment and the loss of enjoyment. Just sayin...

I have talked to more than a few wood workers who tried to make money at it. Only two actually claimed they turned a profit.

One repaired antiques and cain back chairs :not sure if thats really wood working

and the other invented this new jig to cut dove tails on a router table. : Thats not wood working either but he was making a lot of money.
 
Well this topic should be one we add to the CoC for as much as politics and religion get peoples blood boiling this topic gets mine boiling. :D:rofl:

So Allen you did some R& D and discovered that you could not manufacture a wooden box and even begin to think about selling it and making a profit.

Now what?

The chorus is once again saying that its not possible to make a living out of woodworking?

We beat our hobby up all the time. But we also beat up in the process anyone who has the idea as a youngster and I am thinking here as a "Family" that would like to do this kind of work for a living.


My apologies in advance for my attitude on this subject.

First in my not so humble opinion it has nothing to do with poor old wood or woodworking.

There is no such thing as luck in my view specifically as it relates to business. Rather what appears to be luck is a function of actions or non actions taken by an individual that brings them to the point they are at.

Second when one intends to "manufacture" a product and sell it, I would expect that the person has done some market research. tested and checked on their idea, like any business would do, and then examined the most appropriate way to make it relevant to meeting what their market research said would need to be the price in order to have sales. if that is not possible then the idea is stillborn.

Even after that being the case we still have the situation where the product is an unknown to every other person on the planet. Kinda the best kept secret.

So I ask how many people wanting to start out and do anything for a living have taken the time to learn a thing or two about two of my favorite hobby horses in business, Marketing and Sales.

We have grown up with certain stereo types in our heads and tend to think these are real.

1) Sales true sales is a job for a professional. It takes more than the ability to play golf or schmooze people to be able to sell something today. Sitting in a booth waiting for someone to pass by and pay what you asking for your product just because you hand made it and are proud of your achievements is wishful thinking and when it fails you unfortunately have brought it upon yourself.

2) Marketing is another profession. America I would say probably invented the subject and does it better than anyone else in the world. It takes a fair bit of skill to market a product today.

When you start to do something to make a living and do it with the intent of making it into a business you become part of the small business community.

Lets break up for a moment this community into sectors

a) We have manufacturing
b) We have retail industry
c) We have service industry

If we pause for a moment and consider a woodworking business, then I would think it becomes apparent that if we are to begin to sell to the public we enter the realms of the manufacturing sector and when it comes to the sales side are selling direct to the end user which means we enter the retail industry.

Consider that in the manufacturing sector we have several skills required to make a go of it starting with what to manufacture. Today that is not even the realm of the manufacturer. Due to skills required that part has become something a brand does or has done for it by people who are in the design sector.

And I could carry on this soapbox lecture on and on but I hope it gets the point across.


I consult on a daily basis to small business. It does not have to be about woodworking, these facets apply to any business. Why do we tend to think just because a guy buys a bunch of hobby machines and tools, learns about wood and joints and can build something with his hands that he can suddenly be in business and be a success.

One can replace the wood part with electronic components if one likes and the machinery with power supplies computers and oscilloscopes there is no difference.

It took me until I was 37 years old before I got to be captain of my own ship and run my own business.

Before that I began in R&D then moved to Manufacturing, then cut my teeth on marketing and sales the hardest way possible, then dabbled in a number of industries experiencing all my mistakes and managing several new product development initiatives before I got that opportunity.

Then who says when you run the business and happen to work in it you get a 20 hour week and do things at your leisure or pleasure. Common guys lets get real.

When I was Managing Director (President ) of a company I worked my but off and I had a staff of 50 to start.

Why should running your own business be any different.

Just because a guy gets laid off or retires, has built a hobby shop and kitted it out with machinery and wood does and taught himself to make a joint or two and to finish the wood does not mean he is in business or has a viable product or business strategy.

Go to any SBA office and they will tell you to start with a business plan. What do people do they find someone to write it for them just to be able to get the loan and boom go out and do as they please and then wonder why the business is not working. Does not have to be woodworking.

Guys in my view are the worst at this business thing.

The best small business types in my view are woman. They will at least read a book and apply what they learnt.
But a technical guy, specifically a skilled craftsman, heck he thinks he knows it all. You cannot tell these guys anything. They here from a friend that they see supposedly successful that they should do x or get y and boom they do it. But come along and get them to sit down and put pen to paper and put their idea and strategy on paper and boom the lights go off and the shutters come down.

Ask a small business person how many times they look at their p&l during the course of the year. The typical answer is once when the CPA does the tax return.

Then ask about a budget. What do you mean budget? Yeah funny eh? This same small business guy can speak to his broker about a stock he wants to buy and expects the wall street boys to be able to assess the health of the stock and to do that they really need the financials but in his own business this is unnecessary ...yeah right.

My apologies for my rant because that's what it is. :bang::bang:

Then next step when the small business guy finally realizes he cannot do it all alone and starts to hire labor he thinks labor = slave and wonders why the person is not on the same page as them. What the staff are mind readers, you need to communicate and motivate.....but that sounds like management. Oh yeah I forgot you actually need to manage a business big or small and that means customer relations, administration and staff relations and motivation.

Oh I could go on and on and on but I think you get the point by now......


Its not woodworking that's the problem, its our knowledge and attitude towards what is involved in any business big or small. From one man shop to large plant. The only thing changes is the scale of the activity but the phases and processes do not suddenly evaporate.

Take a knife to a gunfight and you have a good chance of loosing the fight.

Start a small woodshop thinking just because you have the tools and can build something for yourself you know all about business then good chance you going to fail just like any other business will.

And we have not even mentioned things like understanding your competition and defining who your target audience is and on and on...

My apologies if I have offended some of you but this subject comes up now and then and is examined all in the interests of the person doing the work.

As Carol has so eloquently put it, the guy she was dealing with was all about telling her about himself and nothing about listening to her needs and accommodating her needs. So this guy has lost out and we should not wonder why. But I bet he will tell you he can sell. :huh::rolleyes::doh:

I rest my case. Have a great day.
 
allen, how big are those boxes, and how thick are the sides? if they are fairish small (less than a foot in length), have you considered resawing the boards, and using thinner sides? twice as many boxes from the same amount of lumber, brings the costs down.
 
dan, whether the cost is 5 dollars or 15 dollars, the overall impact on price wont make that much of a difference since there will be more labor invovled.


rob-its a box. A simple dovetailed box.
Im not looking to open up a manufacturing plant where market research is necessary.

your argument works well in theory, but someone looking to make a few chairs or boxes doesnt have to become an expert in marketing research and product developement unless he is thinking about a large operation.

Maybe if I invested a few hundred hours and looked into different market areas, different types of products, but no matter what, in my opinion, a small home garage type of operation is not turning over any large profits anytime soon.(again, not everyone, but Id guess 90% of the home woodworkers arent making what they could if they held a regular job, and so Im clear, meaning making a product to sell at a show or fair, not getting custom orders for items)

and yes, I can do research, open up and design websites, etc..............but its only a few boxes. or pens, or cutting boards.

I ran a sucessful retail business for 32 years. I never did a bit of market research in my life.
I bent over backwards for my customers, and sold them what they wanted, even if I didnt agree with the junk I sometimes sold.
And I put myself through college by selling products at a flea market, again, I never did an ounce of research, I just lucked out with a product that was convenient for everyone, had it at an incredible price, and sold out each week.

Im offending people, I can see it.

noone is taking into consideration the amount of time they really put in to do shows and fairs. Im 100% sure if someones boss asked them to stay a couple of hours late on a friday night to finish something, they would certainly expect to be paid, but spending 4 hours loading a car, 10 hours setting up and sitting at a show,cost of booth, and 4 hours unloading a car, gasoline, they dont consider that something into the equation.
 
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...Im offending people, I can see it...

I'm not seeing anyone being offended. This thread has sparket healthy, spirited debate, but I don't think anyone's offended.

You mentioned the hidden overhead of loading, driving setting up, tearing down, etc...I think to some people, that's party of the hobby/fun of doing the shows.

In a similar vein, my wife doesn't cook. At all. (OK, she learned to scramble an egg last year, and she can heat a can of soup.) She doesn't understand why I'd ever want to spend hours prepping and smoking a beef brisket. Her thought process is "That's too much work. You should just go to the store and buy one." She can't understand that to me, cooking can be fun, even though it seems like a chore to her.

And just for that, she gets no brisket. :D
 
I'm not seeing anyone being offended. This thread has sparket healthy, spirited debate, but I don't think anyone's offended.

You mentioned the hidden overhead of loading, driving setting up, tearing down, etc...I think to some people, that's party of the hobby/fun of doing the shows.

In a similar vein, my wife doesn't cook. At all. (OK, she learned to scramble an egg last year, and she can heat a can of soup.) She doesn't understand why I'd ever want to spend hours prepping and smoking a beef brisket. Her thought process is "That's too much work. You should just go to the store and buy one." She can't understand that to me, cooking can be fun, even though it seems like a chore to her.

And just for that, she gets no brisket. :D

Vaughn said a few things that I agree with.... First I'm certainly not offended Allen, your brought up a discussion and I gave my response along with others. You had that business for a reason Allen, you knew what you were doing and worked hard at it I'm sure. Please don't worry about offending someone here with this discussion...:thumb:

I've never charged a family member anything, but they have all insisted, to the point of annoying me, that they pay me something. Sometimes they insist on $$ but food and beer works better for me! :D

I know you were making your point by saying 4hrs to load and unload for a show, but it doesn't take me more than 10 min. to load or unload the car and almost all the shows I've done are within 10 mins with no tolls or parking charges. The gas for local shows I don't include because I'd probably be driving more if I wasn't stuck at the show all day. So yes, as long as it's not hot as heck, I do enjoy being at, socializing with other people at and preparing for shows. Plus I've done a few shows with my dad and I wouldn't trade that time for anything...
 
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