What would you charge- bench plus shelf

larry merlau

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Delton, Michigan
Was asked to make a simple bench with a lid that has storage under it like a piano bench ,, simple just two sides and the top and compartment dimensions are 19" deep by 21" high and 64" long also need 2 dividers in the storage area. also a shelf that will attach above on the wall that is 12" deep and 64" wide no hangers just the shelf and these are all unfinished, they will stain and finish. the bench will be for changing into boots and shoes and the storage is for mittens and gloves and such. no fancy wood at all just simple and plain. how much would you charge to make it, and charlie plesums, i am interested in hearing how you would either opt out of it or deal with this type of customer:) thanks for the input.. i have already done my homework so dont think i am cheating on a test:) it was a eye opener for me..
 
ok we will say the bench needs 54 square ft of wood, plywood or solid lumber but plywood will fray as sides on the floor and anywhere else. unless edged.

and the shelf needs 12 square ft of wood again plywood or solid lumber..
 
Made from soft maple @ $4.85 Per bf. I would guess about $950.00 to $1125.00 I'm probably way off since I'm not use to figuring things like this. But it's what I would say. :huh: I wouldn't use Plywood personally.
 
I often use 5 times the cost of materials, but for paint grade (where I can sub leftover wood) give as much as 20-30% off, and for stain grade (no finishing, but consistent wood), give 15-20% off.

A more realistic number than 5 times material, if you are trying to make a living, is as much as 8 times material. A more politic way of saying "I am going to charge you 5 times as much as it costs me" is to say "Materials are about 20% of the total cost." That includes a clear finish - I add at least $150 if they want it stained.

Another way I do estimates is to charge $12-16 per square foot for furniture grade plywood with veneer edgebanding - oak is at the low end of the range, and walnut is at the high end. With solid wood edge on plywood, it rises to $15-20 per square foot. Solid wood goes up to $20-30 per square foot, not so much for the cost of the materials, as for the labor required with the glue up, etc., and the construction techniques allowing for wood movement.

Few of my customers want to go through the analysis, but I do have info on my web page at www.plesums.com/wood/cost.html - I think it gives them an understanding that it is more complex than you would think.

I find that my costs are comparable to name brand furniture stores, and I don't sneak in plastic parts and hidden particleboard like many of the big name stores do.

Does that help?
 
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Few of my customers want to go through the analysis, but I do have info on my web page at www.plesums.com/wood/cost.html - I think it gives them an understanding that it is more complex than you would think.

"There is a minimum $200 design fee, which covers the first part of doing a project, and is applied to the total cost of the project when you proceed."

Smart smart smart. Clearly not your first rodeo there :D
 
I've never made a project on commission. I know my Father used to put a mark up on the material & then the cost for the shop overhead which included his labor. Prints of the plans were figured into the cost. Also the cost of the materials was paid up front.
 
I remember being at an amish furniture store a couple of years back. there were a lot of blanket chests, benches, similar in size to what you are making. the pine versions ran from 400-800 dollars. that was retail.(the 5 foot versions ran all around 595, give or take a few bucks)
 
thanks for the input, i was not in line with what you folks are saying.. my mind is thinking need to keep price low to get job but i have had enough jobs where i got not enough for the job i delivered.. thanks charlie for your input.. you answered several questions but how do you deal with a possible client that has exhibited not having the right budget for your work?
 
how do you deal with a possible client that has exhibited not having the right budget for your work?

Easy. Say, "No, thanks." Hard if you feel you need the work. Easy when you decide you are worth more. Stand your ground, my friend. Remember "Cheap, quick, and good. Pick two." Quality guys don't do cheap and quick. Good and quick costs more. Good and cheap costs even more.
 
...my mind is thinking need to keep price low to get job but i have had enough jobs where i got not enough for the job i delivered.....

A fatal disease. I have never been happy doing a job where I tried to keep the cost low to make a sale. Charge what it is worth. People who are serious customers find the money to do it.

...how do you deal with a possible client that has exhibited not having the right budget for your work?

If they will tell me the budget, I stop working on the estimate as soon as I see I cannot do it for their budget, and if they have paid my design fee, I return the fee (they were honest with me - I need to know when to stop). If they won't tell me the budget, I give them a ballpark estimate before they give me the design fee. If I see I will exceed the ballpark by more than 20% they have the option of quitting and getting the design fee back, or proceeding with a new estimate.

In every case, even known millionaires, I require 50% up front, before I buy or cut wood. I don't let them buy my material, since that would imply ownership, and I would need to keep their wood isolated. Just bring the total money to 50% (the design fee gets credited to the initial deposit). Then when it is ready for delivery, total to 100% plus sales tax. No negotiation. No time payments. For small projects, I take 100% up front, just to save bookkeeping. If they cannot come up with the money on that schedule, I don't want to deal with them.

One other trivia... in the 7-8 years I have been requiring a design fee, I have never had to refund it, and only had one case where my price came in right at the ballpark estimate, but they changed their mind, and decided to build a deck rather that have me build a fancy entertainment center.
 
Always remember Larry that you will never loose money on a job you don't get. Charge what should be the going rate, doing less makes it hard on the rest of us trying to make a living.
 
Always remember Larry that you will never loose money on a job you don't get. Charge what should be the going rate, doing less makes it hard on the rest of us trying to make a living.

What everyone else is saying I agree, but what Jim is saying here is really important.

I realize that in the past I was guilty of doing just that, I've mended my ways.

I do good quality work, I do a lot of different things and I'm very adaptable, if a customer comes to me with a problem I can almost always solve it for them, if they are willing to pay. The Ballpark estimate is something that I've added to my set of tools that I use dealing with clients (Thanks Charlie!) and boy does it work.

I also do work for friends, and that is completely free, my list of people who get that price is short :D

Larry is this person requesting the work coming to you as a professional woodworker?

Are they coming to you as a guy that has a hobby and free time?

Let's say the client is a real estate agent, if you put some property up for sale would they do it for free, just expenses and say a nice dinner?

If the client is a mechanic, and your truck needs a tune up, new wires, plugs and filter as well as an oil change, would he do that work for the cost of the parts and say a six pack of beer?

I know you understand what I'm saying, so you have to ask yourself what you will work for.

i get that the extra money in hand is really tempting, but when you add in all the other factors, how much extra money are we talking about?

I'm doing my taxes right now, off the top I expect to pay just south of 30% income tax, and these side jobs added to my salary at the L shop have moved my tax bracket up, so if I charge $1000 and my material cost are $400, that leaves me with $600, now I pay taxes on that, 30% so now I'm down to $420. If I have 5 hours into the job, I'm a happy guy, if I have 25 hours into the job well that is not very much an hour, and I've not added anything for wear and tear on tools, and my van, nor have I paid for all the sundry stuff that costs real money in my workshop.

If you go cheap materials, charge at least 15% to 20% on top of the materials, that should cover your time/gas money to go get said materials.
Then what do you want an hour for work in your shop?

Figure out a good ball park figure for the hours and then add 15% to 20% on top of that.

So if your materials cost $300 make that $360, if you figure 18 hours of actual work on the bench, then times that by what you want to pay yourself an hour, that lets say $40 an hour $720 times 20% $864 for labour.

$864 + 360 = $1224.

Does that kind of pricing sound fair?

materials $300 x 4 = $1200

Materials time four or five is really a good price, if you want to pay yourself a living wage. If you just want some extra cash for the weekend after doing your day job, then as long as you charge $1 over the price of the materials I guess one could make the case that you are happy. That may be so, but that is no way to run a railroad, IMHO.

I know you do very nice work, even on something like this basic bench, we all know that you will do a very good job, the bench will be used for many many years to come and the price anyone paid for it a generation or two later will be long forgotten.

I hope this helps, I really do understand what you are struggling with, as I'm struggling with it too, but the fact is your time on this earth is limited, don't sell it too cheap.

Cheers!
 
Wow, is all I can say after reading all this. Charlie and Stu have given real good info.

I have always had some trouble pricing, even back when I was in the sign business. Sure do wish I had the help, back then, being given by you folks here now.

Thank you, all, for the lessons.

Aloha, Tony
 
thanks for the added advice stu and charlie,, here is a answer to you stu o this friend clause:) i consider them friends as he is a director of a camp near me, and last year he gave me hourly work till december, doing repairs and complete remodel of a house plus a addition, i treid to get more per hour from him in the spring and he said no way they could so i caved and worked like i was getting paid full rate for carpenter work, and yes i am licensed so i do know what i am doing in that respect.. but when time came to re up my membership in this organization they had two prices , worker, and no worker. i got charged NON-worker even when i challenged the bill. and as for the carpenter work i was working for them for half of the low end rates in our area.. so maybe you folks was right he thinks he owns me and i have let him do it previously but this time i can change the cycle:)
 
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Another perspective.

The world has known you to be a man with a job. If you are 'busy' doing work for another that is seen as the work of an employee, the world does not know you are your own man with your own business. Therefore you will not get referral work, because others think you are employed.

It is a different mindset. I had to go through it when I was laid off in the early '80's. It took me a while to make the transition 'in my own head' that I was now a business, not an employee. It takes confidence in yourself. Claim it. If you believe you are good and do good work, the rest of world will accept your claim until you prove differently. Re-read Charlie's post. Lots of wisdom about pricing there. Only amateurs cost their work in terms of 'materials times some number.' Pro's know their true expenses and set their wage and shop rates accordingly.
 
Larry - I have not read any of this thread yet - but I will - later.

Soo - I may be way off base here.

I don't know the quality of your work, but I am going to guess it is top level stuff.

NOT, counting the bench itself, but the finish only. Quality finish work is not a time and materials sort of thing. Finish is a value added thing. To say finish is 3-4 time material cost just does not get you there.

Finish on the bench is a "value" in and of itself.

Next - custom built piano bench.

Just because the work "custom" is there it is a one of a kind item!
You will design and make this to the customer likes and desires.

Again it is value.

I am totally going to ignore any connotations of material cost. Therefore, to me - 3-4x material cost is not even a discussion.
Material cost has nothing to do with the sales price.
Of course you do not want to be lower.

I will totally focus on VALUE.

What I would do is look at hi end custom furniture builders and research - WHAT - do hi end custom furniture builders sell their wares for.
Get a quote --- there is no obligation there.

High End Custom furniture builders are NOT found in big box furniture stores, or at IKEA.

I would compare the following:
IKEA
big box furniture that is made where labor cost is low
wally world
2-3 custom furniture builders.

I would ALSO - inquire at a furniture refinisher - what a finish cost would be.

After that ----- I would consider the quality of my work in comparison to what I saw.

THEN - I would apply a "VALUE" to the piano stool.

The Value I apply "MIGHT" be lower that the hi end custom furniture builder - because my overhead costs are lower.
The value I apply "DEFINATELY WOULD" be "HIGHER" than IKEA, WALLY, or BIG BOX furniture stores.

After that - I "MIGHT" think about he customers ability to pay, and adjust accordingly - but NOT - down to the IKEA level.



I made a mistake one time. I coworker asked me to build a cabinet that he saw at IKEA, but wanted something a little different. Like he wanted real wood, not painted MDF. I agreed to do it for the IKEA price. I did make 2x material but it was a severs mistake on my part. I KNOW through hindsight that I could have been at 4 times the sales price. -- I will never do it again.
 
Something else I'd like to add, after the additional info that Larry has given I'll say this, maybe you need to drop this client and move on. If a client gets used to underpaying you, they will seldom want to up the pay, they have in their mind a set price for your work, changing that at this point will be difficult, you need to move on to other clients.

Your perceived value to someone is just that.

Let me tell you a story, a few years ago I made a rather nice wooden bowl for a friend's wife for a birthday present, it was cherry wood and about 8" in diameter and maybe 3" tall. A good daily use bowl, she likes to cook. We went to dinner at their house and she was thrilled with the present. Later in the evening she asked me if I would make a larger bowl with six matching smaller bowls, a salad set. I said sure and then she asked me how much, I told her for free, these are good friends, she insisted on paying I said no (yes her and her husband are on my short list). My wife then asked how much she would pay, she said that she would pay $500 without blinking eye, unless that was too low. My wife just about fell out of her chair, she was shocked that anyone would pay that much for me to make a salad bowl and a matching set of smaller bowls. Why did my wife think that? Well she has a LOT of my bowls, if I gave her a new one it was like "Oh wow, another bowl..... thanks... :rolleyes:" because she has a whole pile of them, so her perceived value of my bowls was very low, because I just make them, boom, here you go sweetie, another bowl.... yawn... :D To my friend's wife they were very valuable, she was going to a wedding and she did not want to just give money, or give them a fourth toaster, she wanted something unique and was willing to pay for it. I did make the bowl set for her and the price was free, well we got invited over for more BBQ parties and like I said the lady can cook, especially bake, so we went home with a few nice cakes etc.

If someone thinks your perceived value is low, it is hard to raise their perception, so maybe it's time to cut bait and move on.

once this fellow looks around at store bought non-custom wally world poor quality stuff for the price he will either ask another custom woodworker for a quote and be shocked again, or he will come back and pay you what your are worth.

YMMV

Cheers!
 
Ok the client would be on my emergency work list. Every time he called for work I would be booked out for months unless it was an emergency for me and I needed cash than I might have time to squeeze him in. As for his bench I might do it and I might not. I have a door for someone just like this that has been waiting 2 years and counting to get done and I have no interest in starting any time soon. But when and if I do it will be done along with another project (filler for glue or finish drying) which makes it so the other project paid the bills and the door is just a bump in pay even though it was billed out at a slightly cheaper rate. Oh and I also have been known to send stuff they wanted a discount on un finished. Saves a ton of time and most people do not have the appreciation for a good finish job (they think they can do it no problem) But as you know one can spend a ton of time just on finish. That discount price seems like a good deal to them but in reality by ditching the finish to job has come up to the right pay scale or a bit better. If that bench is 1200 you cut them a discount of up to 20% =240 and deliver it unfinished you are coming out dead even or a bit ahead of the curve at 960. The unfinished part has to be discussed right up front so they know why they are getting a deal.
 
I agree with dropping the client and moving on - with an exception.

The exception is that if you have NO intention of developing any sort of real income and if you are totally committed to hobby - with some outlet to just move stuff on. If you really are committed to just doing "favors". If you want to get REALLY busy, not have much time for yourself, and --- oh I could go on. Then - if yes - I would help the client.

If he wants wally world work send him to wally world.

If you just want a few bucks in your pocket - maybe. But you will not ever "feel good" about giving someone real quality work at wally world prices.

Of course - you "could" grab some construction lumber - your nail gun - a $1.49 2" chip brush, a quart of wally world paint and slap something together for the client. Give him the value he is asking for. Nothing wrong with that either.

If he wants something of value - and pays for it - give him that.

There is no reason you need to build a $4,000 piano stool.

You CAN supply a $50.00 piano stool just as easily. Uhhh - that would be 1/2 hour labor + $10 in materials.
PLEASE - don't work for less than $50 per hour. That's just not right.

I have been told by successful business people, that you should never compromise on your labor charge. What you CAN do it to take away features on the project to get closer to their budget. Sure - take away the finishing --- that is worth $1,000 anyway. After that - maybe take away a leg - or two.

Keep a straight face - sometimes that is hard.

When you bring your car in for repairs - will that replace the engine for - say - $250??? With a new engine?
 
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