sanding sealer or lube?

What I want is simple, should be easy too, all I am looking for is perfection! The finish I am seeking is good protection that brings out the color of the wood but doesn't make the surface appear coated.

Right now I am playing with Spar Varnish, Mineral Spirits , and BLO. Tried three equal parts, seems like too oily so I am going to cut back on the BLO probably try 2-2-1 next time and work back and forth from there. However first things first, I have a bit of an issue with muddy areas and discoloration when sanding, especially when turnings have bark inclusions. Considering the finish I want to go over the top with, what can I use to seal before sanding? What about a sanding lubricant?

Pretty lousy picture, most of what looks like caked up crud is actually glare, the check in the lower knot needs cleaning, but this is where I am at now. Surface finish OK after a Beall buffing, would have been better had I not bounced the bowl on the concrete a few times when I dropped it after the white diamond stage. The line near the upper knot is a deep scratch.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Hu

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Personally have been getting more fond of shellac the more i use it. Its a bit fussy because you want to put it on real thin (and maybe 4-5 coats) and if you hesitate while applying it you applicator can stick making a big blarg spot. The nice thing is that it dries pretty fast (unless the humidity is really high) so I can do coats 20-30m apart so if I'm doing a bunch of bowls I can just work through them in series. I usually do one coat and then let it sit for a couple of days and then sand that back.. then I follow up with the finish coats 1, 2, 3, 4.. real quick, let them cure and then buff out. I'm still hand buffing. I use a rag wrapped around some wool to apply it on the finish coats and then rub out the last coat after its set up a little with a drop or two of oil on the rag and just keep the rag lightly damp with alcohol to keep things flowing.

The bowls I posted here are 4 coats shellac and then topped with one (or two? maybe two) coats of wax: http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?32416-Yaaaarn-Bowls&highlight= The biggest problems I have are that my sanding still isn't what it could be (lazy) and neither is my buffing (again lazy and could use a power buffer here.. todo..).

The shellac alone won't really pop the grain on some woods so if I want more I'll put either walnut or linseed oil under it and give it a while to cure first. I accidentally got some really neat figure in an english walnut bowl that I oiled with walnut and then suntanned (again an accident it was sitting at the front of the shop by a window :D) got a lot of really interesting figure to pop out anyway.
 
What I want is simple, should be easy too, all I am looking for is perfection! The finish I am seeking is good protection that brings out the color of the wood but doesn't make the surface appear coated.

Right now I am playing with Spar Varnish, Mineral Spirits , and BLO. Tried three equal parts, seems like too oily so I am going to cut back on the BLO probably try 2-2-1 next time and work back and forth from there. However first things first, I have a bit of an issue with muddy areas and discoloration when sanding, especially when turnings have bark inclusions. Considering the finish I want to go over the top with, what can I use to seal before sanding? What about a sanding lubricant?

Pretty lousy picture, most of what looks like caked up crud is actually glare, the check in the lower knot needs cleaning, but this is where I am at now. Surface finish OK after a Beall buffing, would have been better had I not bounced the bowl on the concrete a few times when I dropped it after the white diamond stage. The line near the upper knot is a deep scratch.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

Hu

View attachment 82654

If you are looking for a single mix for a stand alone finish, that will enhance the grain, Spar Varnish has a very high oil to resin ratio, and add to that mixing in with BLO creates an imbalance. You would be better off using an oil base interior varnish, BLO, and VM&P Naptha. I would only use about a 15% ratio of BLO, because the varnish has it. This makes for a good wiping finish. You can experiment with the mix ratios, as the less "oil" will produce a harder finish.

If you just want to enhance the grain, which works well on most all species is a 50/50 mix of BLO and VM&P Naptha. Use it as a wipe on and wipe off. When it cures, you can topcoat it with any film finish. You can substitute mineral spirits for the Naptha. It will dry a bit slower.


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If you're looking for some protection without the appearance of a film finish, how about just a coat or two of straight BLO? It's my go-to low-gloss finish.

VM%201011%2002%20-%20800.jpg
 
If you're looking for some protection without the appearance of a film finish, how about just a coat or two of straight BLO? It's my go-to low-gloss finish.

You manage to get a lot more gloss out of that than I do - even with a wax top coat. I'm guessing that its because you're doing a better job at buffing them post oil?
 
You manage to get a lot more gloss out of that than I do - even with a wax top coat. I'm guessing that its because you're doing a better job at buffing them post oil?

Maybe so. although the only buffing on those bowls was with a clean buffing wheel after applying a light coat of Renaissance Wax to the wood. The bare wood was sanded to 400 grit, as I recall, and I think I applied only two coats of BLO.
 
Thanks All, for the advice and the eye candy!

Personally have been getting more fond of shellac the more i use it. Its a bit fussy because you want to put it on real thin (and maybe 4-5 coats) and if you hesitate while applying it you applicator can stick making a big blarg spot. The nice thing is that it dries pretty fast (unless the humidity is really high) so I can do coats 20-30m apart so if I'm doing a bunch of bowls I can just work through them in series. I usually do one coat and then let it sit for a couple of days and then sand that back.. then I follow up with the finish coats 1, 2, 3, 4.. real quick, let them cure and then buff out. I'm still hand buffing. I use a rag wrapped around some wool to apply it on the finish coats and then rub out the last coat after its set up a little with a drop or two of oil on the rag and just keep the rag lightly damp with alcohol to keep things flowing.

The bowls I posted here are 4 coats shellac and then topped with one (or two? maybe two) coats of wax: http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?32416-Yaaaarn-Bowls&highlight= The biggest problems I have are that my sanding still isn't what it could be (lazy) and neither is my buffing (again lazy and could use a power buffer here.. todo..).

The shellac alone won't really pop the grain on some woods so if I want more I'll put either walnut or linseed oil under it and give it a while to cure first. I accidentally got some really neat figure in an english walnut bowl that I oiled with walnut and then suntanned (again an accident it was sitting at the front of the shop by a window :D) got a lot of really interesting figure to pop out anyway.

Ryan,

Some nice yarn bowls! I had looked at those awhile back I believe. I haven't used shellac because I thought it lacked penetration. I do know it is pretty much the universal between coat for everything for compatibility issues. Generally speaking oil finishes don't work well here because of the high humidity so I'm wanting a little more than oil.

I have been hand buffing until lately when I bought the Beall system. My extra bench grinders and 3/4 horse motor are in storage, somewhere, so I got the #2 morse taper to adapt it to my lathe. I cover the ways and have at it. I can't come anywhere close to the finish from the Beall system hand buffing even if I do it for hours. The power buffing makes it almost too easy. I go from 320 grit to smoother than I really want after buffing.



If you are looking for a single mix for a stand alone finish, that will enhance the grain, Spar Varnish has a very high oil to resin ratio, and add to that mixing in with BLO creates an imbalance. You would be better off using an oil base interior varnish, BLO, and VM&P Naptha. I would only use about a 15% ratio of BLO, because the varnish has it. This makes for a good wiping finish. You can experiment with the mix ratios, as the less "oil" will produce a harder finish.

If you just want to enhance the grain, which works well on most all species is a 50/50 mix of BLO and VM&P Naptha. Use it as a wipe on and wipe off. When it cures, you can topcoat it with any film finish. You can substitute mineral spirits for the Naptha. It will dry a bit slower.


Mike,

Thanks for the info about the high oil content in spar varnish. I was just looking for quality varnish when I bought it. I'm familiar with naptha but I notice you always specify VM&P Naptha. Is that a brand or a bit different mix or ??

A pure oil or high oil finish is almost guaranteed to get gummy over time here. Between the heat and humidity it will eventually come to the surface.



If you're looking for some protection without the appearance of a film finish, how about just a coat or two of straight BLO? It's my go-to low-gloss finish.


Vaughn,

Those bowls are beautiful but pure BLO mostly makes a mess down here. I put it on some wood for overnight protection a time or two but it doesn't dry and just works to the surface of the wood forever although a wax over it might slow that down. So much moisture in the air that it absorbs a little water over time and gets gummy too.

The finish I think I want is something that gets down into the wood with good penetration and then kicks to harden. I have been reading up on all the home brews since we all know homebrew is better than anything you can buy! :thumb:

I only let that little bowl dry about twenty-four hours, outside in the breeze in the daytime, inside at night in the climate control, before buffing and waxing. Looks pretty good now other than the blotchiness and some oopses that have nothing to do with finish but it feels the slightest bit oily. A good rubdown with a dry paper towel takes that away but it will feel that slightest bit oily again tomorrow. The very hard carnauba wax that came with the buffing system doesn't stop the oil migration.


(to all)
Maybe all I want is a wiping varnish, very light sanding, then wax and buff? I was concerned with the varnish getting deeply enough into the wood for protection. Would a thin coat or two of wiping varnish penetrate deeper then go to a slightly thicker blend? I still want to sand the surface and buff it to a satin sheen. I put some lacquer on other pieces for a built up finish and it made a beautiful deep finish but it was obvious that you were handling plastic, not wood. I want to offer some pieces with the plastic finish but I also want some that seem to have little or nothing on the wood.

First thing I need to do is avoid making a mess sanding the wood. No finish is going to suit me unless it is going over clean wood without discoloration and muddy areas caused by sanding.

Hu
 
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Some nice yarn bowls! I had looked at those awhile back I believe. I haven't used shellac because I thought it lacked penetration. I do know it is pretty much the universal between coat for everything for compatibility issues. Generally speaking oil finishes don't work well here because of the high humidity so I'm wanting a little more than oil.

Thanks! You're mostly right, it doesn't penetrate real deeply and like I said its ability to pop the grain is only so so compared to oil. If you thin it down some with denatured alcohol (DNA) it will get in a bit deeper but still nothing like an oil. I'm also not sure how fast/well it'll cure in the humidity there; that might be a problem.. A few coats does make a pretty hard surface finish though and it seems tougher than most of the poly's and many of the wiping varnishes I've used. Its pretty water resistant if used fresh. I used to use more wiping varnish but have started preferring shellac for mostly two reasons: first its much faster to apply so I can put a build on pretty quick and with the fast cure it doesn't pickup dust as bad, and second it doesn't stink so bad (smells kinda like green apples). Its also somewhat more forgiving because you can push it around with DNA on a rag.

I'd still say give it a shot - the worst that happens is you spend $18 on a can of sinsser and figure out why you don't like it.

I have been hand buffing until lately when I bought the Beall system. My extra bench grinders and 3/4 horse motor are in storage, somewhere, so I got the #2 morse taper to adapt it to my lathe. I cover the ways and have at it. I can't come anywhere close to the finish from the Beall system hand buffing even if I do it for hours. The power buffing makes it almost too easy. I go from 320 grit to smoother than I really want after buffing.

I need to invest in that :D
 
Thanks, and a few more questions!

Thanks! You're mostly right, it doesn't penetrate real deeply and like I said its ability to pop the grain is only so so compared to oil. If you thin it down some with denatured alcohol (DNA) it will get in a bit deeper but still nothing like an oil. I'm also not sure how fast/well it'll cure in the humidity there; that might be a problem.. A few coats does make a pretty hard surface finish though and it seems tougher than most of the poly's and many of the wiping varnishes I've used. Its pretty water resistant if used fresh. I used to use more wiping varnish but have started preferring shellac for mostly two reasons: first its much faster to apply so I can put a build on pretty quick and with the fast cure it doesn't pickup dust as bad, and second it doesn't stink so bad (smells kinda like green apples). Its also somewhat more forgiving because you can push it around with DNA on a rag.

I'd still say give it a shot - the worst that happens is you spend $18 on a can of sinsser and figure out why you don't like it.



I need to invest in that :D

Ryan,

I am starting to get a shelf full of the few bucks here and few bucks there stuff!:D However I do think I need some shellac around just for it's barrier abilities if nothing else. I'll give it a try as a finish and if I don't like it at least it is likely to get used somewhere else. Some of the other stuff on that shelf . . . The man that lived here before me died in the nineties. There are still cans of finish everywhere from his woodworking days!

If I use shellac for the finish, do I use very thin shellac as a sanding sealer? Trying to get the sanding step under control right now but I know that anything I put on the wood to keep it clean sanding has to be compatible with the finish which is why I thought it was a finishing question also.

One more thing, are you talking about dewaxed shellac? My ignorance concerning wood finishing is pretty much boundless!

Hu
 
I had forgotten about the humidity issues you face living down in the swamp. I can see why oil finishes are pretty low on your list. ;)

To answer one of your questions, yes, you want dewaxed shellac if you're planning to use it with any other finish.

As to making a mess with your sanding, are you cleaning the wood well between grits? I use an air hose and blow nozzle to remove any sanding dust between each grit. And in cases where I'm particularly concerned about "clouding" things up, I'll use a paper towel with a bit of DNA on it to wipe the piece down between grits.
 
What I would do. While the piece is spinning, use only 100% tung oil, a drop at a time on your palm and rub in while spinning. You have friction will help dry the oil. You can get 4-5 coats on. Take it all the way with each coat to tac. The more you put on the higher the shine.
 
The man that lived here before me died in the nineties. There are still cans of finish everywhere from his woodworking days!

Hmm at a guess a lot of that is probably trash. Might be worth going through it all and testing it on some scrap and seeing whats still good and take the rest to the recycle center.

If I use shellac for the finish, do I use very thin shellac as a sanding sealer? Trying to get the sanding step under control right now but I know that anything I put on the wood to keep it clean sanding has to be compatible with the finish which is why I thought it was a finishing question also.

One more thing, are you talking about dewaxed shellac? My ignorance concerning wood finishing is pretty much boundless!

Hu

First a disclaimer; I'm not an expert on shellac (or indeed any sort of finishing), so take the specifics here for what their worth based on that and play around with it yourself.

I've been mostly just using the Zinsser Sealcoat for both the base coat and the top coats because a) I had some that needed using and b) its real easy; its dewaxed abd seems to maybe have some stabilizers added. I recently ordered some flake (from toolsforworkingwood) and have mixed it up with a little 190 proof and it seems to work pretty similar, I suspect higher proof would be even better (commercial DNA often has some stuff added to allow it to be more pure otherwise alcohol starts absorbing water from the air at around 97%). I can use the Zinsser straight up for all coats but it does go on a bit better (imho) as a seal coat if you cut it a bit (maybe 20% more alcohol). If I put the seal coat on while the piece is still on the lathe, I can just run the lathe for a few minutes after at low speed to dry it off and we're good to go for finish sanding. I usually do the final coats off of the lathe so I can get the bottom as well without having to blend the coats to much.

A lot of my finishing process is driven by the fact I'm still doing it in a fairly primitive fashion, I'm sure if I had a spray system, etc.. etc.. blah blah.. but you work with what you have.
 
I had forgotten about the humidity issues you face living down in the swamp. I can see why oil finishes are pretty low on your list. ;)

To answer one of your questions, yes, you want dewaxed shellac if you're planning to use it with any other finish.

As to making a mess with your sanding, are you cleaning the wood well between grits? I use an air hose and blow nozzle to remove any sanding dust between each grit. And in cases where I'm particularly concerned about "clouding" things up, I'll use a paper towel with a bit of DNA on it to wipe the piece down between grits.

Vaughn,

I do clean between grits, mostly because of concerns about having a little grit left behind to cause a big gouge in the next level of sanding. I don't always wipe it down wet but I'll start. Main reason I made a mess with this piece is playing. When Larry and I were at the toy store I bought a new pad for my DA sander that had shredded a pad for no apparent reason when I first tried it. Didn't really need the sander and lathe but I put the two together for a few minutes and got the dreaded mud in places. I suspect it is a whole lot easier to prevent than to get off after it is built up!

What I would do. While the piece is spinning, use only 100% tung oil, a drop at a time on your palm and rub in while spinning. You have friction will help dry the oil. You can get 4-5 coats on. Take it all the way with each coat to tac. The more you put on the higher the shine.

Dave,

The people selling "Tung Oil" take a lot of liberties with the name. Some "Tung Oil" doesn't even contain tung oil!:huh: Please clarify what you are using and a brand would be appreciated. Real tung oil is appealing to play with and if it doesn't work it is a component in a lot of the homebrew formulas. I remember the tung oil tree groves from when I was little and there are a few tung oil trees still around my home stomping grounds. Tung oil was not only good for finishing wood it was going to cure everything from warts to cancer!

Hmm at a guess a lot of that is probably trash. Might be worth going through it all and testing it on some scrap and seeing whats still good and take the rest to the recycle center.



First a disclaimer; I'm not an expert on shellac (or indeed any sort of finishing), so take the specifics here for what their worth based on that and play around with it yourself.

I've been mostly just using the Zinsser Sealcoat for both the base coat and the top coats because a) I had some that needed using and b) its real easy; its dewaxed abd seems to maybe have some stabilizers added. I recently ordered some flake (from toolsforworkingwood) and have mixed it up with a little 190 proof and it seems to work pretty similar, I suspect higher proof would be even better (commercial DNA often has some stuff added to allow it to be more pure otherwise alcohol starts absorbing water from the air at around 97%). I can use the Zinsser straight up for all coats but it does go on a bit better (imho) as a seal coat if you cut it a bit (maybe 20% more alcohol). If I put the seal coat on while the piece is still on the lathe, I can just run the lathe for a few minutes after at low speed to dry it off and we're good to go for finish sanding. I usually do the final coats off of the lathe so I can get the bottom as well without having to blend the coats to much.

A lot of my finishing process is driven by the fact I'm still doing it in a fairly primitive fashion, I'm sure if I had a spray system, etc.. etc.. blah blah.. but you work with what you have.

Ryan,

I have tried to pick up a few of those old metal cans of finish. Generally the bottom of the can and contents stay on the shelf! Well, until the contents run on the floor. A bunch of old paint the same way. Not my shelving and such to throw away all of it and I'm afraid if I just try to throw away the old cans this will become a superfund site!

I do appreciate the details on the shellac, definitely going to give it a try.


(to everyone)
Thank You All! I'm learning, . . . slowly. No real background with wood except construction carpentry. Trying to get a fine grade of finish is new ground for me. To make things worse, I have the absolute perfect finish for my use on a couple of calls a friend made. He used his personal home brew that took him a long time to perfect and unfortunately he is no longer with us. His son knows the formula still exists, . . . somewhere! Having what I am seeking in front of me makes me know the finish is obtainable, somehow.

I do much appreciate all the help and patience. I do have to have things spelled out for me that anyone that has worked long with wood probably knows without thought.

Back to turning. I misted a very wet piece of wood and wrapped it in plastic when I stopped for lunch. It may be a new life form by now. I forgot how sweet fresh cut wood was to turn, even this danged popcorn.

Hu
 
...The people selling "Tung Oil" take a lot of liberties with the name. Some "Tung Oil" doesn't even contain tung oil!:huh: Please clarify what you are using and a brand would be appreciated. Real tung oil is appealing to play with and if it doesn't work it is a component in a lot of the homebrew formulas. I remember the tung oil tree groves from when I was little and there are a few tung oil trees still around my home stomping grounds. Tung oil was not only good for finishing wood it was going to cure everything from warts to cancer!...

As long as you specify the "100% pure" part, you can find it here and there. Here's one source:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20049&cat=1,190,42942

I've also used the Lee Valley "polymerized" pure tung oil:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20050&cat=1,190,42942

Personally, I wasn't happy with the results, but I suspect it was my methods, not the materials. ;)
 
hey vaughn you got link that would show hu how you sand your work? i think hu is trying to use a 5"RAS for some of his sanding and i dont think thats the best tool for the job,
 
hey vaughn you got link that would show hu how you sand your work? i think hu is trying to use a 5"RAS for some of his sanding and i dont think thats the best tool for the job,

No link really showing how I do my sanding, but the vast majority of it is done with either the Grex 2" ROS or a Harbor Freight close quarters drill with a 2" sanding pad. For larger pieces, I'll use my 3" Metabo ROS. Sometimes I'll do my initial rough sanding with a spinning lathe and handheld 80 grit, but all my finish sanding is done with power tools, and if the lathe is running at all, it's only spinning between 50 and 100 rpm. I've tried my 5" ROS and found it was just too big for me to control well, and I usually did more harm than good with it. The only exception has been on large flat platters.
 
Thanks Larry and Vaughn!

Larry, I generally just use the sand paper and the lathe but I play with that sander I bought the pad for a little bit now and then. I really don't like the dual action, or I assume random orbital in wood working terminology, sander. For this kind of work I prefer something that just spins. I don't have air here right now but do have a compressor that would be barely adequate to run the tools Vaughn uses. My old compressor was 25CFM two stage and I was overdriving it ten percent or so. 200 gallon tank and I had air!

I have bought a couple of the slightly better quality harbor fright 4.5 inch side grinders and a pair or router controllers. What I am heading towards is Bill Neddow's sanding protocol. The article is at this site if the link doesn't take you straight to it.
http://www.stubbylathe.com/

I need to get some two and three inch pads and some of the wavy edged paper to not dig in. Found a starter kit for those that seems pretty reasonable too.
http://woodturnerswonders.com/products/ultimate-2-and-3-inch-sanding-kit

Some big bills hit next month so the toy fund will probably be nonexistent. Might squeeze out a hundred dollars where it seems most useful. What do y'all think of that sanding kit?

Turned a shallow bowl out of the popcorn tree wood today to use the hollower where I could see what I was doing. I didn't have a lot of room in my can so I just added about another part and a half of spar varnish to my slightly unknown quantity of the 1-1-1 stuff. Judging by what was left in the can I hadn't used very much anyway. Feels about the same as the earlier mix, still don't see any sign of build-up with three coats. I could be wrong but I don't think extended drying is going to do much for the oil, I'll probably buff this out tomorrow afternoon. Think I will jump from tripoli to the wax skipping the white diamond or some really fine rouge I have that might be finer than the white diamond, I would like a little more texture to the piece.

Depending on which side of the rock I wake up on in the morning I'll probably turn a more typical bowl and see what I get from the popcorn. One surprise, there wasn't but about four or five of them but there were some points on the wood under the bark when I stripped it. Those look like birdseye after turning. While the popcorn has a nasty rep for cracking and splitting it turns like butter wet, so far so good.

Hu
 
...What do y'all think of that sanding kit?...

Interesting approach, but I'm not sold. ;) It seems one of the main premises behind that kit is that removing and replacing sandpaper disks wears out the Velcro. In my experience, it's heat from using too much pressure and too high of speed when sanding that wears out (melts, actually) the Velcro hooks. Once I slowed down my sanding and lightened the pressure, my Velcro sanding pads started lasting me a year or two instead of a month or two.

Now if you're going with a high-speed approach like Bill Neddow did, then any Velcro-based attachment system is gonna fail quickly due to heat. For that, I'd use something more along these lines from Vince Welch:

http://vinceswoodnwonders.com/twist-turn-discs/

I've not used the Twist Turn system, but I've been very happy with the other sanding supplies I've bought from Vince. I've used his Blue Flex disks for several years now. His 2" and 3" starter kits are a good deal. Also, I've used the "wave" disks in the past, and although they were decent, I found I get as good or better results with the Blue Flex disks. They're cut a bit oversize, so the sanding edge stays more flexible (avoiding dig-in issues), but they're still easier to maintain control of when sanding up next to a detail like a bead on a bowl rim or a collar on a hollow form. Vince has spent a lot of time in the abrasives business and he's got a number of products geared toward woodturners. Great customer service, too.
 
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