spraying shellac

Rich Soby

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Cape Cod, Ma.
Was asked to do a bit of restoration work on an old piece for a client. Its a display table with ball and claw feet. My guess is it was made sometime before the 1930's. I have to disassemble it as all the glue joints have come lose and will be re gluing it then cleaning and spraying at least 2 coats of shellac. I did a bit of cleaning on it yesterday with DA to see what would come back and if in fact it was shellac as I suspected or possibly lacquer.

My question is should I use a 1# or 2# cut for spraying. There are too many "nooks and crannies" in the details to brush this or to pad so spraying would be the best option imo.
I have sprayed a 1# cut to use as a sealer but this is going to be the finish coat(s)

Schedule is as follows.
disassemble and clean all parts, make repairs where necessary.
reassemble with hot hide glue
clean joints
wipe down with DA cleaning all the dirt and dust and getting a clean surface
spray a coat of shellac
rub down with 00 steel wool and lube
spray
rub
spray
if sufficient build then rub down with 0000 steel wool and lube then paste wax and buff.

Any advice would be appreciated should I be stepping wrong here.
Also bear in mind this table isn't any "certified antique" and it was modified many years ago. And although this project is a restoration it is more for appearance and to repair the structure of the piece. I am trying to keep it as original as possible.
this will also be my first venture into the world of hot hide glue! Here, hold my soda and watch this! Yolo! :rofl:
 
Spraying shellac is so easy I prefer it, especially on items with a lot of detail to get the shellac into (besides, I can't brush it very well at all). But it's meant to be a thin finish, and too much build can lead to alligatoring so be aware you don't want to go to thick. Anyway, I spray most of it at about a 1# cut (I don't get too precise mixing or diluting the stuff). But Seal Coat be sprayed right out of the can (if you use the canned stuff), I've had less success spraying the Amber and clear right out of the can. Those are a 3# cut and just a bit thick for my taste. So, I would spray 1# cuts, I wouldn't rub with steel wool (to avoid leaving shards that can rust later) except for the second to last coat to remove nibs, then final coat. Shellac sticks to itself quite well, so the rubbing isn't really needed and i would use fibral wool, kraft paper, or maybe 600 grit sand paper to remove any roughness.

Forgot to add: cleaning shellac from spray equipment is so simple: use household ammonia instead of DNA. It's cheaper and does a better job (actually destroys shellac, rather than dilute it). Besides, it's a lot cheaper. The one watch out: it can discolor aluminum so if you gun has aluminum components don't soak them in the ammonia (DAHIKT).
 
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Both Shellac and Lacquer "burn in" so your final product is the sum of what you apply, a single coat after the solvent from all the layers has evaporated.

Although I more often spray lacquer (since the final finish is more durable than shellac), in either case, if there is a lot of detail, I spray multiple thin coats... if the one coat doesn't get all the detail, no problem, just come from a different direction for the next coat. And the next and next.

For spraying where I want to build with multiple thin coats, I use pretty thin material - for shellac think in terms of 1 pound cut. Since the Zinsser Seal Coat is a 2 pound cut out of the can, I dilute with equal parts denatured alcohol. Zinsser Shellac (they no longer call the Seal Coat Shellac) is a 3 pound cut out of the can - you actually get 1 1/2 times as much shellac per quart. Don't worry about exact measures... all the alcohol will be gone by the time the shellac is dry, so thinner shellac just means more alcohol to evaporate, and more coats to get the desired thickness for the final finish.

Beware of the formula change with Zinsser Seal Coat. They recently started making it slightly acidic to extend the shelf life. However, that acid impacts some finishes - If I use shellac rather than a high tech sealer, I use just a thin coat, and have never had a problem with Zinsser, but I know some expert finishers who prefer a thicker coat of shellac and the acidity caused problems with their final finish. Their problems went away when they switched from Zinsser seal coat to shellac mixed from crystals.
 
thanks for the advice guys. I don't usually buy the Zinsser shellac. I order the flake from Jeff over at Homestead Finishing Products. Have had great consistency with his products.
I ordered a bag of dewaxed orange for this project and will mix it up when Im ready. I thought the 1# would be ample as you both said the alcohol evaporates completely and leave the full finish. And I can build more coats that way if I need to.
 
Rich - Buy "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. It's over 300 hundred pages long with hundreds of fantastic full color images. It's written in a very clear way, without being condescending or simplistic. Flexner is very good at explaining complex subjects and ideas clearly. He covers every subject from first word to last word, an introduction to nitty gritty details.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding...keywords=understanding+wood+finishing+flexner

I have the 2010 edition and the book is simply mind-blowing.
 
Dave Agnew sounds like a great book I'll check it out.
Dave Hawksford the nooks and crannies in this case are the details so no fill there lol.I like the idea of several spit coats and that sounds like the way I'll go. Several 1# cut sprayed then fluff and buff the final. I'll take pica
 
Came out sweet!!! The hide glue was really cool to work with the table came apart and went back together like a breeze. Touched up some worn areas with TransTint dye and sprayed 8 coats of 1# cut dewaxed orange shellac that I mixed up from flakes. Let it dry for several days then rubbed it down with pastewax and 0000 steel wool.
Customer was thrilled when I delivered it! Unfortunately I was under the gun as I got backed up on a prior project and had another one to start so in my haste I forgot to take pics throughout the process... :(
Thanks for the tips everyone!!

(on a side note: I think I will be giving hide glue a very serious look for future cabinet work!! )
 
I used it on one very large cabinet project. The very long open time (liquid hide glue) really gives you time to get the clamping done securely. It's also reversible, that is opening the joints up after it's dried is quite easy. In my case that really helps. I had this large cabinet on a furniture dolly and rolled it out into the sun on my concrete drive (cherry, wanted it to darken slightly). Anyway, a gust of wind blew it over to the edge of the drive and the dang thing fell face fist onto the gravel part of the drive. Some slight dings were easy to take care of, but one long stile on the face frame had to be completely removed and replaced. The hide glue made this possible. It definitely has it's use in the shop, though the long clamp time might not make it perfect for everything....besides, it doesn't impact finishes; glue spot don't show!
 
My bad on that one Dave. as I said I was in a rush and spaced... then I figured id get one at their house.. nope... had to be one of the darkest houses I have ever been in... couldn't have got a good pic if I tried.

Bob, in researching hide glue it seems the benefits are many. As said it can be reactivated, indefinitely! This piece I just worked on as I was disassembling it I found that some of the parts that I had to remove were still glued solid, I was able to drill a small pilot hole in a discreet spot and with a syringe inject hot water then just wait a few seconds and wiggle the parts. they came right apart and unlike yellow glue fresh hide glue will reactivate and mix with old hide glue.
you don't always need to use clamps as hide glue draws the pieces together as it cures. it doesn't "dry" like yellow glue and it doesn't introduce much if any moisture into the wood. its hardness is somewhere between yellow glue and epoxy.
with regards to open times, it depends on the grain weight you are using. they make different weights for different purposes all having varying open times. Also the heavier the weight the stronger the glue.. One thing I read was when gluing panels where a long glue seam is necessary, to prevent the beginning of the run from gelling before you get to the end and join the pieces is to 1 run a rag of hot water down the joint to keep it warm and also to have a very warm area to be working in or hot lights. once the glue starts to gel the bonding process has begun and you may not or will not get a good joint. nice thing is you can run hot water over it again and reactivate...
This being my first experience from start to finish with it, I really became a fan and I am trying to learn more. My next project which is an entertainment center/bookcase is coming up and I am going to use the hide glue.
I may eventually invest in a good glue pot if this pans out (no pun intended)
 
For a glue pot, try a yard sale/thrift shop crock pot with hi/lo heat choices. They are available in really small sizes these days so you might even consider a new one in the size you like. They are not expensive.
 
I bought a little electric kettle but found that it is too inconsistent in its heating. even on the "warm" setting it spikes to 200 degrees so I had to watch the thermometer and keep unplugging it then plugging it back in to heat it back up...
if I see myself using it enough ill make the investment
and besides who doesn't like an excuse to get a "new tool" for their shop?!?!! :D
 
I wouldn't bet on any electric kettle not cycling enough to spoil the hide glue, but the cycling may be smoothed out enough if you use it as a double boiler. I had a lesson in violin repair on Friday, and their glue pot was a cup (like a mug without a handle) in a water bath in an electric pot - a double boiler. They were shooting for 135 to 140 degrees, and quite thin glue. And they pointed out that even briefly boiling the hide glue destroys the proteins that make it good.

If you don't have a suitable thermometer handy, remember 150 degrees is the hottest a hot water tank should be set at... so 150 degree water is uncomfortably hot. When I make bread, the goal is 110 degrees for the yeast, which barely feels warm to the touch. As they were showing me the temperature and texture of the hide glue, by having me rub some between my fingers, they agreed with my guess that it was about 135 degrees.
 
I've got a little Rival (brand) electric kettle - probably holds about a quart of water - that holds 140~150° pretty well. I use it as a double boiler like Charlie says. Put the glue in a jelly jar and set in the pot that's about half full of water (just enough water that the glue jar doesn't float). It's worked great for me over the last fifteen years or so. Rival still makes the pot. I've recently seen them at Walmart and Target for under ten bucks.
 
this is the one I got here.

http://www.amazon.com/Proctor-Silex...08&sr=1-1&keywords=Proctor+Silex+32oz+Hot+pot

along with a thermometer to watch the temp. I use a jelly glass set in the water and fill the pot to the glue line on the jar. even on just the warm setting it spikes up to 200 degrees so I have to heat the water then unplug it and keep plugging and unplugging it to keep it from burning. I played with the controls to see if there was a sweet spot or if I needed to turn it up to turn it back down.. nothing. still shoots up to 200 before dropping.... Cant really go complain to PS as im using their product for something other than it was designed....
Maybe ill give the rival a try on the next job.
 
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