REALLY basic turning question (haven't found an answer yet).

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Independence MO
When do you use carbide tools and when do you use HSS tools? I've been looking for an explanation, wondering if carbide turning tools, are similar in nature to how everyone used to use steel blades, and then carbide blades took over? Or are they more of a specialty tool (hold up to rough turning, or harder woods better)?
I have turning tools now, from a friend who is retiring (age related issues), but won't be able to do anything this month (starting OT, due to one bosses, multiple surgeries, then potentially coworkers surgery), so I have been trying to read up, instead of falling asleep at the lathe (or any other tool).
 
Its pretty much personal choice. There are a couple of places where carbide tools are nice (the only one I have is a mini crook neck hollowing tool which basically needs a replaceable cutter of some sort because otherwise with much sharpening it pretty soon wouldn't be crook necked :D You can get similar ones in HSS but for that use carbide seems like a good choice).

The short version is that its claimed (could even be true) that the carbide tools are a bit easier to use to start and (definitely) take less sharpening (because you don't mostly; you could take a diamond hone to them for a quick touch up). On the flip side the hss tool offer more variety in shape, cut type, and edge profile and tend to be a bit more flexible in the long run. You can get a shearing cut with carbide, but its easier to use them like a scraper (at least in my limited experience with them) so imho its harder to get a nice clean cut with some traditional tools once you get the knack (having said that 80 grit hides a lot of sins). You can also get an "ok" quiver of traditional tools for a fair bit less than a comparable quiver of carbide (not so much if you get top end hss though, then its about six of one price wise).

A lot of turners seem to start out with carbide and then want some more options and turn more towards traditional tools once they get more comfortable on the lathe. Being stubborn and hard headed as well I started with HSS (actually not even that but just high carbon when I first turned way back when but I don't count that because of the looooong gap in the middle) and stuck there.

Don't over think it to much. Pick one type, learn to use it and get some shavings on the floor.
 
Randal I am anything but a natural woodturner. I seem to have to fight for every bit of progress I have made. My son was a better turner in 10 minutes than I was in a couple months.

All of the above is just to let you know the steps I went through. I started with the top of the line Harbor Freight turning tool set. I was getting no place fast. I purchased an Easy
Wood square carbide tip turning tool. My skill level jumped up quite a bit. However, since it is a scraping tool, my finished products were finished using a lot of sanding.

I don't know why, however the Easy Wood tools (the plural is because a son gave me a couple more EW turning tools) gave me a better feel for turning. I found that I could now do a better job using a traditional gouge (notice I said, "better," not great).

As my tool sharpening improved, so did my turning ability. I still use the EW tools for certain things. However, I probably would not really miss them if they were gone.

I thought I could sharpen turning tools very well. I have discovered that my "very well" was pretty mediocre. Lately my son (If you read the post I made a few days ago, the name Igor may give you a slight indication of our relationship) and I worked on setting up a sharpening station. Now sharp has a whole new meaning and my turning skills have taken a giant step for turning improvement. The difference between "sharp" and "SHARP" really makes an improvement in turning---It is like the difference between trying to cut frozen butter and warm butter. The cuts are cleaner, sanding is much less which result in a better looking piece of wood.

I still use the Harbor Freight tools for some things. However, I definitely prefer my Doug Thompson tools and a special purpose tool by Hunter. The advantage of the HF high speed steel tools is that the steel is pretty good and they are relatively inexpensive. That combination makes it so you do not have a heart attack if you want to grind a tool to try a different shape and the steel is good enough to let you know if changing the shape was a good idea or just produced a bad shape. The main downside to the HF tools, which cost about $80 for a set, is you have to sharpen them more often than A tool that costs over $100. A good tool feels better in your hands, it probably has a longer handle giving you more control and more safety.

It is sort of like comparing a small Fiat with a Lincoln or Caddy. They will both get you from LA to NY, however one is a lot more comfortable, fun, quieter, relaxing etc. than the other.

Anyway, I was just trying to tell you the steps I took. These steps may not be best for you but I hope they give you some ideas that help you cut your own trail to finer turning. Improving is fun and I am still having lots of fun.

Enjoy,
JimB

We have some great turners on the Forum and they are eager to help new people; listen to them. PM me if I can help you; Jim C Bradley.
 
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Randal, like most things in turning, there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to using HSS vs. carbide cutters. It's largely personal preference. I use both, but for the most part I prefer my traditional gouges and scrapers as opposed to the carbide tool, simply because I can resharpen the HSS and can't resharpen the carbide. (Yes, some people use a diamond hone on carbide cutters, but they will never get anywhere near as fine of edge as a high-end cutter from Easy Wood Tools or Hunter Tools will have.) Still, there are some situations where I'll reach for my carbide tools. For example, if I'm making a deep plunge cut to true up the face of a blank, the Easy Wood Tools square cutter excels, since it's cutting on two separate faces. (Three, actually, but you're never engaging more than two cutting surfaces at the same time.) One of the beauties of the Easy Wood Tools is their square shank and the fact that it has a lot of mass, making it less prone to vibration, especially when it's hanging a few inches past the tool rest.

The Easy Wood Tools (and their imitators) are used as scrapers presented parallel to the lathe bed, and the quality of cut you can get varies with the wood species and the operator's experience. The carbide cutters from Hunter have a much different profile, and they are presented at an angle, to provide a shearing cut. They are less likely to have tearout problems, but are a bit harder to get a smooth, ridge-free surface.
 
I have both.

I used the Carbide tools to teach someone, and he learned fast, but nothing was as smooth as he wanted. I used the HSS tools to help him make his work better, but it took him a lot longer to learn to use the HSS tools (and to learn to keep them sharp).

A friend at Woodcraft (whose work I respect) says he recommends Carbide to start because learning the sharpening and HSS tools at the same time as learning the basics of turning is too frustrating, but eventually almost everyone moves to HSS, often in addition to their starter set of carbide, not as a replacement.

I think this short version is basically the same as the more detailed answers above.
 
I have both.

I used the Carbide tools to teach someone, and he learned fast, but nothing was as smooth as he wanted. I used the HSS tools to help him make his work better, but it took him a lot longer to learn to use the HSS tools (and to learn to keep them sharp).

A friend at Woodcraft (whose work I respect) says he recommends Carbide to start because learning the sharpening and HSS tools at the same time as learning the basics of turning is too frustrating, but eventually almost everyone moves to HSS, often in addition to their starter set of carbide, not as a replacement.

I think this short version is basically the same as the more detailed answers above.

Well said Charlie. Perhaps you should be a short story writer.

Enjoy,
JimB
 
Interesting question. I have made myself a couple carbide tools and even sold a few. Still, when turning I reach for my more traditional tools. Dunno why, maybe the 'feel' of the cutting/turning process is more familiar. A friend invested heavily to become a dealer for a line of very nice, and expensive, carbide tools. After several years of visiting and doing demos at turning clubs and elsewhere, he never sold a single tool. That said, even the traditional hss tools have their own personality. I have a Henry Taylor large skew that was a gift. It is supposedly one of the better brands out there. I just do not enjoy using it and usually set aside and pick up one of my others to do the job at hand. If you, I would not make the investment in a carbide tool until you are sure it is the thing for you.
 
Interesting question. I have made myself a couple carbide tools and even sold a few. Still, when turning I reach for my more traditional tools. Dunno why, maybe the 'feel' of the cutting/turning process is more familiar. A friend invested heavily to become a dealer for a line of very nice, and expensive, carbide tools. After several years of visiting and doing demos at turning clubs and elsewhere, he never sold a single tool. That said, even the traditional hss tools have their own personality. I have a Henry Taylor large skew that was a gift. It is supposedly one of the better brands out there. I just do not enjoy using it and usually set aside and pick up one of my others to do the job at hand.
If you, I would not make the investment in a carbide tool until you are sure it is the thing for you.
But how do you know if it's the tool for you until you invest in one and turn with it?
 
Thanks all. Work actually figured out I would like to have a life outside of it, so I am not getting all the OT forced on me.

The tools I received, have one carbide tool with them. (so I can practice with different types of tools) I'd just never seen any kind of an explaination.
 
On a semi-related note regarding carbide cutters: There are people (me included) who have bought generic carbide cutters for a good price, figuring they are the same dimensions as the expensive ones from Easy Wood Tools, so they must perform the same. Well, in my subjective opinion, there's no contest. The more expensive cutters really DO perform better and stay sharp longer than the generic cheap ones. I bought a quantity of square carbide cutters to use on my Easy Rougher, and brand new out of the box they were not as good as an Easy Wood cutter - even an Easy Wood cutter that's had hours of use. Craig has a source that's using higher-quality carbide and performing extra honing steps or something...I don't know the exact differences other than the difference I can see in the cut quality and the edge longevity. I also had similar experiences with round cutters. I was a field tester for Easy Wood Tools several years back, and I saw first-hand the differences in cut quality and edge retentions between different round cutters.

In other words, you get what you pay for. The carbide tool sold by Joe Blow on eBay for $50 will not compare to the $130 Easy Wood Tools model they stole the design from. ;)
 
Other than the hollowing tools <by various makers - most use Hunter cutters anyway> and the Hunter tools, you would use "carbide" scraping tools as a beginner trying to get something cute accomplished. When you want to learn how to turn you use HSS and learn to sharpen them and use them correctly.
 
I total agree I teach disabled Vets an others with disabilities an using the Easy tools takes the frustration out an most goes to HSS tools in the long run but with the easy tools they get the satisfaction quickly then there hooked on turning
 
Other than the hollowing tools <by various makers - most use Hunter cutters anyway> and the Hunter tools, you would use "carbide" scraping tools as a beginner trying to get something cute accomplished. When you want to learn how to turn you use HSS and learn to sharpen them and use them correctly.

In the past I could not get my gouges and other turning tools as sharp as I could get my flat chisels using a WorkSharp. Even so, I thought I was making the turning tools as sharp as they were going to get. I was wrong. Currently I am using the Tormek tool holder on the wet, slow speed (I forget the actual speed; it is something like 100 rpm) grinding wheel. I don't like calling it a "grinding wheel;" it is more like "finishing wheel."

I use the Tormek tool holder on a slow speed (1,725 rpm) dry grinder with a fine (If you want the actual grit PM me. Jim C Bradley), fairly friable (ditto if you want the name of the stone) grinding wheel to shape the tool. Then I switch over to the really slow, wet wheel to finish the job. I don't know where I would be if I started with the Wolverine system and a slow wet wheel. I know the Wolverine is good at grinding some shapes. I also know I would have to have a slow speed (100) wet grinder to go with it for finishing.

In my experience the slow speed, wet "grinders" take forever plus eternity to do any tool shaping; the slow speed (1,725 rpm) dry grinders are OK on shaping but way to hot on the thin cutting edge. Therefore I use one "grinding" tool to grind and a different, gentler unit to do finish work.

Gabby aren't I?

Summary: If you are a beginning turner and have some EXTRA money, I feel that the carbide tools will get you going faster but not as well, when you get better you will want to use cutting tools which have a slower learning curve and produce better results.

Enjoy,
JimB
 
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Maybe I will find out, that I am dreaming, but I figured I shouldn't have to rough shape the tools (regrind) as much as just tune up/sharpen them. (came from a retiring turner, who turns similar stuff to what my lathe size is capable of)
New tools will have to be ground of course (none yet), and since I think all my grinders are high speed (need to verify that), I will probably at some point buy the Woodcraft with stones already on it. (current grinders are a Baldor, square frame Craftsman, and Craftsman with a multitool belt disc sander attachment)
When I bought my Tormek, used (seller was given it by late friend as thank you for handling his estate), the turning tools were with it. (gave about $20 more for it then a Grizzly clone)
 
The Tormek is adequate for reshaping tools when new, your needs/preferences change, or (as they do when demonstrating the Tormek at trade shows) somebody puts a huge ding in your chisel. They do offer a stone that can make the grinding wheel seem more coarse for shaping, and then (the other side of the stone) make the wheel finer for final sharpening.

Some shapes, like a fingernail grind on a bowl gouge, are very hard to reproduce between different grinding systems. I have both the Tormek, and the Wolverine on an 1800 rpm grinder - when I switched over I was not able to exactly reproduce the same shape, but it was so close I couldn't tell the difference using it. There was enough difference that I don't want to go back and forth (wasting grinding time and chisel steel).
 
Well for me its case of whats practical, some of the trees available to me are so darn hard that HSS simply wont do what want. It doesnt matter what grind I have, the edge wont last. As a point in question I have a Thompson 1/2'' gouge that I use for roughing out small vessels around 150-200 mm or 6-8'' and its not unusual for me to have to touch and or resharpen the gouge half a dozen times for a very basic rough out, nothing wrong with the steel its the darn silica content of the wood

So its to the tungsten carbide tools I must go. But for finishing I will persevere with HSS due to the fact a much finer edge in general can be had and on Douglas Fir I have a high carbon steel gouge as this will produce the finest edge of all that I use for such timbers.
 
When do you use carbide tools and when do you use HSS tools? I've been looking for an explanation, wondering if carbide turning tools, are similar in nature to how everyone used to use steel blades, and then carbide blades took over? Or are they more of a specialty tool (hold up to rough turning, or harder woods better)?
I have turning tools now, from a friend who is retiring (age related issues), but won't be able to do anything this month (starting OT, due to one bosses, multiple surgeries, then potentially coworkers surgery), so I have been trying to read up, instead of falling asleep at the lathe (or any other tool).

I don't own any carbide tools myself and the couple of times I had an opportunity to try them, didn't really like them... most of my tools are HSS and my got to tool most often is a 5/8" bowl gouge, ground at 60 degrees and I think what's called a fingernail grind... the wings on the gouge are about 3/8" wide.... and I have two roughing gouges from Benjamin's best that I sometimes use for roughing some of my turnings...
 
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