can you make this?

larry merlau

Member
Messages
18,741
Location
Delton, Michigan
THIS for that price? i have been asked to make three of them.. and this is what they sent me to show what they want.. i am not a production shop.. not even sure karl brogger could make rate at this price?
 
from the description
[h=4]PRODUCT OVERVIEW[/h] [h=2]Model # TRIW2427[/h][h=2]Internet # 100508080[/h][h=2]Store SO SKU # 120194[/h]


The Pegasus Exhibit Wall Cabinet features a rich, warm cinnamon finish. The cabinet has 2 doors set on concealed hinges for a clean look, and has an adjustable shelf concealed behind the doors that allows for a customized storage space. The cabinet also features an open shelf at the bottom for convenient access to needed items. The cabinet comes with a secure-mount hanging system for installation.

  • Made from birch wood and MDF
  • 2 doors
  • 1 adjustable shelf for customizable storage
  • 1 open, bottom shelf for easy access
  • Rectangular, oil-rubbed knobs
  • Concealed hinges for a sleek look
  • Rich cinnamon finish
  • Secure-mount wall hanging system for installing the cabinet
  • Pre-assembled unit
  • Overall dimensions - 23-3/4 in W. x 8-1/2 in. D. x 27 in. H

I would say "not at that price but what I would make would be made from real wood and not MDF"

 
that is how i see it to, Don.. i dont mind doing the work but if you figure the materials up and look at that you dont get anything for your time. even if your making 3 of them..
 
I've never had any problem being honest with folks who challenge me on price. When they give me the, "I can get that at Walmart for $89", I tell them to go for it. Most people don't understand the meaning of quality.
 
Even using those materials I would have a hard time hitting that price point. The volume pricing they get on materials and hardware, the fact that they are all set up to spray-paint a "rich warm cinnamon" color all over whatever they cobble it together out of and a hundred more just like it per day, etc. makes it unrealistic for me. I learned from my brother who long ago chose to restore, work on and supply parts for Ferrari, Aston-martin and Jaguar and not Porsche or Mercedes Benz. You can find a Porsche or Benz dealer / shop in almost the density of Starbucks in Los Angeles so they are always in a price war. Provide a better product with a more personalized focus and charge accordingly.
 
Don't beat yourself up. Don't cheapen your name out in the marketplace. Don't even think about taking this on. You will be losing more than money.

Encourage those folks to go for it elsewhere. Not only do they not know quality, they don't appreciate it either. They are not your core customer if you want to be in the custom woodworking business. Your customers are custom, too. Not the run of the mill who would buy that junk. Those folks failed to qualify to be your customers.

:saythat: I certainly did! And I would repeat it, again and again.
 
I've never had any problem being honest with folks who challenge me on price. When they give me the, "I can get that at Walmart for $89", I tell them to go for it. Most people don't understand the meaning of quality.

I always told them YES I CAN here sign this contract for 3600 unit and I require 50% down. I will start next week..........That shuts them up pretty fast and drives the point home :pullhair::crazy:
 
Don't beat yourself up. Don't cheapen your name out in the marketplace. Don't even think about taking this on. You will be losing more than money.

Encourage those folks to go for it elsewhere. Not only do they not know quality, they don't appreciate it either. They are not your core customer if you want to be in the custom woodworking business. Your customers are custom, too. Not the run of the mill who would buy that junk. Those folks failed to qualify to be your customers.

:saythat: I certainly did! And I would repeat it, again and again.

100% agree with Carol so ditto.
 
Don't beat yourself up. Don't cheapen your name out in the marketplace. Don't even think about taking this on. You will be losing more than money.

Encourage those folks to go for it elsewhere. Not only do they not know quality, they don't appreciate it either. They are not your core customer if you want to be in the custom woodworking business. Your customers are custom, too. Not the run of the mill who would buy that junk. Those folks failed to qualify to be your customers.

:saythat: I certainly did! And I would repeat it, again and again.

Yeah! What Carol said.
 
No - I cannot.

It is about 99% MDF

Cut out on a large CNC machine.

Made on a production line.

Made in a country where wages are low low low - living conditions are poor - working conditions even worst.

The only thing birch is the birch panel in the door - birch plywood - birch plywood made not in the US or Canada.

The finish is either an adhesive backed vinyl of a sprayed on finish.

There is no way I WANT to even try to make that.

I can make one that looks like that - much better quality - will last longer - nicer finish - MUCH more money.

******************************************************************

HERE is the rub.

Most people don't WANT what I would make.

Most people want to "remodel" and change the appearance every 3-5 years - so disposable really IS what they want.

The do NOT want a bathroom cabinet that is going to last 30 50 years or even more.

They want to remodel!!!

Remodel has been instilled into American Culture for a long time now - look at all the shows on TV pushing "remodel" and all the comercials on TV, and the remodel magazines.

*********************************************************************

I cannot tell you how many times people ask me about making cabinets.

I don't do it.

1) I don't really like making cabinets - I don't hate it - I am pretty good at it - it's just not my cup of tea.

2) I don't really find it to be profitable.

I can make more money per hour painting a room than I can making cabinets.

Signs are also more profitable - and more fun to do.

***********************************************************************

Remember that dumb wall hanging from JC Penny??

Well - I would rather do that!!
 
I always told them YES I CAN here sign this contract for 3600 unit and I require 50% down. I will start next week..........That shuts them up pretty fast and drives the point home :pullhair::crazy:

OK that's funny! Do you also explain that it'll be two months while you get bids from the overseas factories?

Carol nailed it, you gotta know which customers to treasure and which ones to fire.
 
I've had people ask me the same thing. When I give them the price they say they can get it for such and such and I tell them go and buy it and that you come to me when you can't find what you want in the store.
 
We had neighbors in Florida that were doing a lot of remodeling in their home, two houses down from ours. Knowing I built cabinets and other stuff in our garage, the man asked me if I'd be interested in looking at their kitchen and giving them an estimate. I agreed, took some measurements and made notes of what they wanted. I took a couple of days to do some research, never having done anything that large. I did a basic layout - enough to know approximately how much material would be needed. I knew they had talked with Lowe's about the job and was pretty sure of their expectations.

They insisted that the cabinets from Lowe's were solid maple - no particle board, etc. I worked up the numbers based on that "fact". Now, I didn't spend a lot of time on developing my estimate but tried to be a good neighbor. I came up with a quote of about $24,000 using solid wood. I had tried to counsel them about why professional cabinets are made with plywood, mdo, mdf and such, but they wanted nothing to do with any of that. He knew what he was talking about and they would get solid wood from me or Lowe's. When I gave them my numbers, they basically said I was crazy - that they could get everything they wanted from Lowe's for a little over $22,000. I told them to go for it!

A few weeks later, they received the shipment from Lowe's. I made it a point to wander down to do the appropriate gawking. Sure enough, anyone who knows anything could see the cabinet cases were painted mdo. I couldn't be absolutely sure, but the door frames appeared to be poplar painted to resemble maple. All of the stuff looked nice, but sure wasn't what the man insisted they made special for him!

Now, this is the same super-intelligent, well-paid human that took out an equity loan on their home to do the remodeling, buy two new vehicles, etc. Housing prices had gone through the roof, so he got more than double what they had paid for the house. Their house is now worth about 40% of the total of the loan they took on it. Some people!!!
 
Ive mentioned this entire scenario a few times here.
im not the high skilled woodworker that most of you are, so I have friends and relatives and friends of friends and friends of relatives always asking me if I could make them this what would this or that cost.(oh, hes not a pro, we should be able to get a decent price, and I know, if theres one tiny thing they dislike they will complain until 9 years after Im dead)
Its always difficult to deal with because I know no matter they feel its worth, or should pay, they are so off for what I, me, the amateur feels like he should be paid that I know in advance someone is going to feel insulted or hurt.

After a few years, I finally came up with the right answer-

"I always wanted to tackle a project like that, its interesting for me, but I committed myself to so many projects for my son (daughter, wife, brother, etc), I really don't expect to have any time to take on anything else new for a few years at least.

ofcourse, there are always those that will ask, come on, just give me a ballpark figure , off the top of your head.(yeah, like that's simple for a one of a kind project), so if they insist, I just say double or triple of what I know they expect to pay.
I had one friend of a friend say to me, you must play in a different field then we play.

people are just rude sometimes when it comes to something they feel or expect a person should do for them.
they think building a piece of furniture takes 3 days.


having posted this, its easy for me to turn down woodworking for money because I never intended on woodworking for profit

one more thing, I don't see how many could do woodworking and turn over a real profit unless one is dealing with high end woodworking where clients expect to pay top dollar.
 
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If somebody wants that type of material (Birch plus MDF, but I bet you have trouble finding the Birch part), don't even waste time building a quote for them. As others have said, you cannot compete with an automated factory cranking out junk in high volume, sold by the shipping container-full from overseas.

I generally don't do cabinets, because most people want a large volume, all delivered at once, and installed. My small shop doesn't have room to store a volume of cabinets until the entire order is ready for delivery. There are local custom cabinet shops who are oriented to that work (one I know optimized their process so that less than one minute of manual labor was required per cabinet, using their super expensive custom machinery).

I get my customers from folks who want a durable cabinet or piece of furniture, with special features and perhaps custom size.
 
THIS for that price? i have been asked to make three of them.. and this is what they sent me to show what they want.. i am not a production shop.. not even sure karl brogger could make rate at this price?



It'd be tough.

Nothing wrong with MDF when used correctly. In certain applications, it is a much smarter move than going with solid wood just because of stability. Flat panel doors, I use an mdf cored sheet for the panels. Can I do solid? Sure, but its a waste of wood, and time, which the customer ends up paying for, and realistically it isn't as good. The doors are heavier causing more wear and tear on hinges, and it is very difficult to get the consistency of color and grain like you do on a veneered sheet.

I don't do any Euro stuff, which would make that a bit more complicated. I also don't believe in edge banding, adding another layer of complication. Small shop, I'd probably make the box work out of solid, but you'd have a better product if it were edgebanded with at least 1/8" solid on an MDF carcass. That takes time. More than if you were to do a face frame.

My finisher would charge me about $140 to finish that, and I'd probably want about $250 for the box work if I wanted to make anything on it.
 
thankyou loads karl, its always great to get input from a professional cabinet maker, and offering a price.
then ofcourse its what area you live in that might have an effect on the final price.
Im pretty sure guys in Cali and NY can demand higher prices because of the high cost of running shops.
(my cousin shut down his shop after his father opened it in the late 50s or early 60s because the real estate taxes on long island for him to run the shop was 40 thousand a year, didn't make sense to him)
 
My finisher would charge me about $140 to finish that, and I'd probably want about $250 for the box work if I wanted to make anything on it.

Interesting to have solid numbers on it Karl.

Out of curiousity do you outsource all of your finishing work?

im not the high skilled woodworker that most of you are

Stop selling yourself short Allen :D
 
Out of curiousity do you outsource all of your finishing work?

Yep, I don't have the funds to pay for another 1000+ sq/ft to dedicate strictly to finishing. He does a much better job than I do anyways.



And demographics and geography plays a huge part in what the same end product costs. If my shop were in the next town over, taxes are higher, and paying another $10k a year in property taxes has to come from somewhere. If you live in a State like California and in a major city, everything across the board costs more. Cost of living is higher, so wages have to be higher. Rents or land prices are higher, and the taxes are astronomical at every turn. Then you throw in hostile regulations, and you've got another additional cost. A few years ago I debated about building jobs here, and trucking them to the Bay Area where some friends are. Their friends out there were paying more than double for cabinets than what I can get around here.


Something I learned a long time ago in this biz. Its not what you get, its what you pay. My customers come in either two forms: "Holy crap, how do you sleep at night?" and "I thought it would've been more...." Some shops that build absolute crap can get some big dollars, while some don't. A good salesman can sell anything. (of which I am mediocre at best)
 
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