I'm still a little confused by gouges...

Roger Tulk

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St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
OK, I can tell a roughing gouge from a scraper, and a parting tool from a spearpoint scraper, and even a detail gouge from a writing desk (as long as it's a multiple choice question,) but I have a problem identifiying bowl and spindle gouges and how to sharpen and use them.

As far as I can tell, the fingernail grind is supposed to be applied to a spindle gouge, and is not swept back as far as an Irish grind on a bowl gouge. But then I hear sharpening people talking about using the fingernail grind inside a bowl. So which is it (the fingernail grind?) Bowl gouge or spindle?

A bowl gouge can be given an Irish or Ellsworth grind, which I have done with mine, and they work for me, but the traditional bowl gouge grind looks to me like a slightly misshapen roughing gouge with no wings to speak of. Does anyone still use this grind, and what for?

If I mistakenly use a spingle gouge in a bowl, or an Irish grind on a spindle, am I going to lose my fingers?

I would like to know what gouges you use for both between centres and bowl work, and how you sharpen them.

I have to rebuild my sharpening jig, so there will be more questions later.
 
The depth of the flute determines bowl or spindle in most cases.
Here is a link to Thompson Tools
From L to R the first two are bowl gouges with very deep flutes whether U or V.
Third is the Spindle gouge and depth of flute is 50% of diameter.
Fourth is the Detail Spindle gouge and depth of flute is 33% of diameter.
Fifth is the Shallow Detail Spindle and depth of flute is 20% of the diameter.
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/products.asp
If you click on each pic it will take you to a better view.

The more shallow the flute the tighter place your can turn into such as a bead.

Bowl grinds can also be a Jamieson, 45/45, and other terms. Typically bowl gouges have the wings swept back more than spindle gouges.
A traditional grind (sometimes called a production) is as you say. The wings are almost straight up like a spindle roughing gouge. I do not use one because I am a chicken :eek:. If you can control it the cutting edge is very sheer giving a cleaner cut, if you can't control it the top corner is very close to the wood and a small mistake allows it to dig in creating one heck of a catch.
On either type of grind for bowls many people grind a secondary bevel in order to scoot around the area from the side to the bottom easier.

Most gouges now are made from round stock so if it is bowl or spindle the shaft is the same. Older spindle gouges may be formed from flat steel and should not be used inside a bowl IMHO. Typically I would not use a spindle gouge for bowl turning; the exception would be for detail work such as adding beads or working around the base of a tenon.
 
If it says spindle...no bowl work! If it says bowl...use it on anything. Grind is a matter of taste. Fingernail is good for shear cut and some shallower stuff. A more blunt grind on a bowl gouge does a great job on steep walled stuff.
 
OK, it is becoming clearer to me now. Of the 7 or8 gouges I have, only one is a bowl gouge, the others all having flutes pretty close to 50% of the thickness. I bought some of them in a bargain bin with no labels on them. My bowl gouge is ½"; do I need more than one gouge to start simple work? I understand Jim's warning not to use a spindle gouge in a bowl, but can I use it to shape the outside of the bowl before hollowing it out?
 
My bowl gouge is ½"; do I need more than one gouge to start simple work?

Nope, I use a single 5/8" bowl gouge for 80-90% of my bowl turning. The rest is done with a couple of scrapers and a little detail work with a 3/8" gouge. The 1/2" should work for most small/medium simple bowls.

I understand Jim's warning not to use a spindle gouge in a bowl, but can I use it to shape the outside of the bowl before hollowing it out?

No!

he problem is that the shape is bad for attacking end grain (so technically if you were turning a bowl where the outside was all side grain its a spindle and then its sort of ok). I actually use my bowl gouges for even spindle work where I'm doing a steep end grain cut because they work better and its safer. The other problem is that the spindle gouges mostly have a weaker attachment to the handle so if you do have a problem there's also a higher chance of the gouge coming apart and then doing bad things to you as the mangled bits come by you.

Here's a rather dramatic example of what not to do (warning small amounts of blood and large amounts of "don't do this even to demonstrate why not to do this").

 
OK, it is becoming clearer to me now. Of the 7 or8 gouges I have, only one is a bowl gouge, the others all having flutes pretty close to 50% of the thickness. I bought some of them in a bargain bin with no labels on them. My bowl gouge is ½"; do I need more than one gouge to start simple work? I understand Jim's warning not to use a spindle gouge in a bowl, but can I use it to shape the outside of the bowl before hollowing it out?

Your 1/2 bowl gouge should be good for most work. If I added one it would be a 5/8". Note in the US the size is the shaft, in the UK the size is the flute in bowl gouges only. If yours has a 1/2 shaft it is a 1/2 US or a 3/8 UK. UK include Sorby, Hamlet, Crown, Asley Iles, and others. Hurricane bowl gouges are also sized by UK specs.
If you have bowl gouges why ever use a spindle gouge on a bowl (except as linked to below).

As far as spindle gouges and bowls. I would never use a Spindle Roughing Gouge as in the video with any bowl/face work.
However the normal spindle gouge may be a different story for detail work. A bowl may be almost finished with a bowl gouge but I would not try to add these type of beads/details with a bowl gouge.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...483&thid=JN.gWjsgv5neSpQi+sLNqxLjw&ajaxhist=0

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...818&thid=JN.KyKO6RhcRcivCRjMhOSVXA&ajaxhist=0

Just saying there can be exceptions, some mandatory.
 
However the normal spindle gouge may be a different story for detail work. A bowl may be almost finished with a bowl gouge but I would not try to add these type of beads/details with a bowl gouge.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...483&thid=JN.gWjsgv5neSpQi+sLNqxLjw&ajaxhist=0

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...818&thid=JN.KyKO6RhcRcivCRjMhOSVXA&ajaxhist=0

Just saying there can be exceptions, some mandatory.

Truth, you can do a lot with a spindle detail gouge - some folks even do small vessel hollowing with them. I was mostly aiming to avoid confusing the issue to much to start with - there is always an exception :D
 
This is certainly a useful thread for me, I didn't know that I didn't know this stuff. A follow up on the spindle gouge for the outside of the bowl if I may. I know the roughing gouges aren't to be used on bowls, but I though the spindle gouge (which i had always thought of as being a different tool, than a roughing gouge) was acceptable. Not true, or have I got all this confused in my mind?
 
Fred...the only time I would use a roughing gouge on a bowl is to take the blank from square to round. But IMHO...my bandsaw does a far better job.
 
Fred...the only time I would use a roughing gouge on a bowl is to take the blank from square to round. But IMHO...my bandsaw does a far better job.

I would only use the roughing gouge in that case if the the blank was chucked up like a spindle, that is all of the grain going parallel to the bed - and I wasn't making any significant curves on the shape :D. Spindle roughing gouges don't do real well with end grain cuts. I don't see any reason to do that though because a) I agree with Jim and b) even if its not that round the bowl gouge is soooo much easier to use.

Spindle roughing gouges and spindle detail gouges are indeed different beasts, the roughing gouge is really only good for spindle work (the "roughing" part is arguable since I've taken plain spindle pieces to ready to sand at 200+ with it, but think of it more as a concept than an absolute - you can't do fine detail work with it).

The difference between bowl and detail gouges is perhaps a bit more nebulous. You can use the spindle detail gouge to do some detail work on the outside of bowls, like cutting beads or coves or other similar stuff. I wouldn't generally use them for bulk material removal because they are usually built more lightly than a bowl gouge so you're more likely to break it (or have it pull out of the handle) - but it can be fine/useful with light/careful cuts. The main difference between detail and bowl gouges tends to be the sturdiness of construction and some differences in the flute shape (generally detail gouges have a shallower flute) - there are other things folks change about the grind, etc.. but that starts to get a bit fuzzy.

Doc Green has a rather good treatise on gouges, if you read through it I think you'll at least have the basic ideas down (and practice some of the things he talks about if you haven't, its definitely helpful):
overview
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges1.html
spindle roughing gouge
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges2.html
bowl gouge(s)
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges3.html
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges4.html
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges5.html
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges6.html
spindle detail gouges
http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/gouges7.html
 
I agree with Ryan and was not trying to muddy the water with beads on bowls. Just trying to illustrate an exception.

As an :eek::eek::eek: ing example. When I started I asked about the skew. Everyone told me to use the lower half of the cutting edge, never ever get the long point in the wood, and try not to get the short point in the wood. Good advice for 85%. Can't tell you how long I tried to cut V grooves without getting a "point" in the wood.

For Bowl Gouge or Spindle Gouge my analogy would be...... a neighbor says he has a nice 16" walnut nut tree you can have if you cut it. You have two tools that will do the job.
Will you use your axe or your hatchet?
 
As an :eek::eek::eek: ing example. When I started I asked about the skew. Everyone told me to use the lower half of the cutting edge, never ever get the long point in the wood, and try not to get the short point in the wood. Good advice for 85%. Can't tell you how long I tried to cut V grooves without getting a "point" in the wood.

:rofl: :doh: That must have been exciting!

Interestingly I've also seen videos of people doing planing cuts with the upper half of a skew. I puzzled over that for a while, since it was contrary to how it behaved in my hands (slight understatement :rolleyes:) but eventually figured out that the trick was that you needed to have the "support" for the cutting edge in line with where the cutting edge meets the workpiece. Usually the support is the tool rest, but if you come in high enough it can also be the workpiece itself and if the skew is one of the oval ones you also have more latitude in where the edge is because you can roll the supporting point over on the rest.
 
Fred...the only time I would use a roughing gouge on a bowl is to take the blank from square to round. But IMHO...my bandsaw does a far better job.

I used a roughing gouge to do this, before I started this thread, as I thought I had seen one of the youtube wazos doing it. On closer insteption, he may have be using one of those wide, slightly curved bowl gouges I've seen. Anyway, I still hve all my fingers.
 
I used a roughing gouge to do this, before I started this thread,

Here is a short video by Lyle Jamieson showing roughing using the bowl gouge. I use my 5/8 for roughing but usually go down to my 1/2 or 3/8 for finish/finesse work.
I do suggest your turn from a 45* rather than directly in the throw zone.
Do not try the two finger hold but it illustrates how little effort is needed (Lyle only does it for a few passes).
Note also he is turning with his body, as you should, not with your hand/arms poking at it.
Hope it helps.
 
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