More about gouges

Roger Tulk

Member
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Location
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
I hope I'm not wearing you down withmy questions.

I set up my grinding rig today, and sharpened all my gouges. I took my spindle gouges, and however they were previously ground, I put a 45º grind on them, rotating them on the stone without any fancy swinging back and forth. I left my Irish grind bowl gouge alone. So, from what you can see here, do my grinds look OK for spindle work?

Now, this one is of the stand I keep my chisels in. It's so clever I had to show you, and it also works as a mating stall for tools.
Astand.jpg

These are the backs and the fronts of my tools, respectively, the one on the far right is my bowl gouge:
Bbacks.jpg Cfronts.jpg

These are the tips of five of the chisels, the last one showing the flute and back:
Dends.jpg Eendstoo.jpg Flute.jpg

So, do these look reasonable well ground to you guys, or should I refine my technique, or get someone else to do it?


I would also like to know if lathe tools are oviparous or viviparous, or reproduce by cell division. I swear when I counted at the start there were 12 tools in the stand, but at the end there were 13. I didn't see any little lathe tool eggs lying around while I was working, so I want to know how they gave birth to another tool. It had to be one of the 3/8" gouges.
 
While I'm on the subject, I've seen a grind like this referred to as a fingernail grind, but have heard that also applied to the Irish grind, and the Irish grind is sometimes referred to as an Ellsworth, but some Ellsworths seem to be much more swept. I have also heard woodturners say that they sometimes put an Irish grind on a spindlie gouge. Where does it end?
 
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Personally, I prefer to have the wings on bowl and detail gouges more swept back than your examples. I also think I use a more acute angle, although I couldn't tell you what it is because I've never measured it. My gouges aren't close at hand, but when I get a chance, I'll grab a photo or two for you. (Although if you look at the pics on Doug Thompson's website, that's pretty much how I run mine, although I think I might sweep the wings back a little more than Doug does.)

Regarding the Irish/Fingernail/Ellsworth grinds, if you ask 10 different turners to describe the difference you'll likely get 15 different explanations. All three names are nebulous enough that there is no finite answer to the question, in my opinion. Then there are the guys who have the left wing swept back a different amount than the right wing. I have no idea what that'd be called. My suggestion is don't get too hung up on the names (or even the specific angles involved) and just experiment with different angles and degrees of wing sweepage until you find what works best for you. ;)
 
Having so many spindle gouges, and with three more bowl gouges on the way, I'm happy to experiment. I put the names of the gouges on the ferrules so if my grandkids or other sprouts are helping, I can ask for the tool I want. Maybe I should name the scrapers and skews, too.
 
Agree with Vaughn, I like a bit more wing, it's more forgiving in use cause you're less likely to catch the edge/corner of the chisel.

I also regrind the bottom of the first pass to round over the curve a bit. Makes it a bit more forgiving on the transitions.

You might notice I'm all about the more foregiving grind, it has made my life a bit simpler though. Some of the more "technical" grinds might do a smidge better job in some cases, but require more finesse and.. well finesse and me ain't best friends :D
 
I think agreeing with Vaughan is always a good strategy. ;)

Unlikely to go to wrong, at least in regards to turning tools :)
I thought doing a secondary bevel was mostly for bowl turners. Is it good for spindle turners, too?

I was mostly looking at the bowl gouges, but I like a bit shallower grind on the detail gouges for what little I've played with them. I'd ignore me for specifics on detail gouges though, I've forced myself to do more skew work and so have done a lot less with them than most turners.
 
Grind angle, grind style, wings/no wings, secondary bevel, and all the other things you hear about are mostly matters of personal preference, how you were trained, and how you hold and use your tools. The biggest things are keeping your tools sharp and keeping the grind consistent for your tools. If you find a way to sharpen so your bevel angle is the same every time, learning and muscle memory will occur and your turning will improve much more and more quickly than grinding a specific grind or angle on your tools will help. If you're constantly having to chase a new grind angle on the bevel, the big muscles never have the opportunity to learn how to hold the gouge. Grind them the way you're comfortable and enjoy.
 
Grind angle, grind style, wings/no wings, secondary bevel, and all the other things you hear about are mostly matters of personal preference, how you were trained, and how you hold and use your tools. The biggest things are keeping your tools sharp and keeping the grind consistent for your tools. If you find a way to sharpen so your bevel angle is the same every time, learning and muscle memory will occur and your turning will improve much more and more quickly than grinding a specific grind or angle on your tools will help. If you're constantly having to chase a new grind angle on the bevel, the big muscles never have the opportunity to learn how to hold the gouge. Grind them the way you're comfortable and enjoy.

I'll chime in here and add my 2 cents to Steve's comment... I use my 5/8" bowl gouge almost exclusively and have it ground on a 60 degree bevel... it's what I got used to and to change it would mean changing the way I turn...
 
I have two with a fingernail grind and two with a steeper grind for a more acute radius in taller bowls. Experiment and see what's what...where your comfort level lands. I do add a sub bevel to avoid bruising the wood...friggin pain to sand out once it's there. Since all but one of mine are Thompsons...I grind the way he says to. He made 'em and should best know how grind 'em.
 
Good job on the smooth grinding.
Everyone has their own preferences and I dare say some professional turner likes them just the way you have them now.
For me, for spindle I prefer about a 35-40* bevel and more pointy. By more pointy 2nd pic 2nd row, the first spindle gouge appears much more pointy than the second.
For spindle roughing gouge about 45* and almost no sweep back on the wings.
For bowl I like a much greater swept back, at least 45*, and a bevel angle in the 50-60* range. The production grind with the wings almost straight up scare me so I don't use those yet.
I only have one bowl gouge ground with the double bevel for scooting around corners. I just use smaller gouge (like a 3/8) which will automatically have a shorter bevel compared to a 1/2 or 5/8. I also tend to go with more of flatter catenary curve for the form to avoid drastic changes from the side to the bottom.

Here is a video by RoboHippy that may help clear things up some, at least from ones persons perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtuo5CZP8ow

Here is a video by John Lucas on correcting grinding problems but the same procedure can be used to sweep back wings more. Just grind more on the wings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9G16ylEZHQ

I would not do any wholesale regrinding. Try them as the are and make very small changes as you will have to re-sharpen anyway.

I grind by bowl gouges about the same as Lyle Jamieson does in this video. Whether it works for you or not is up to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3liDhY_zxSc
 
I have to go with what Steve said. Everybody has their preference. On my bowl gouges, I keep the bevel pretty much the way it came. I do usually sweep the wings back a little bit but not much. You will just have to experiment a little bit to find what is comfortable for you and go with that. Trying to duplicate what others do will get you a bunch of ground down gouges that are useless. No need for that. I do like your gouge holder. Nice.
 
Roger,
I use something similar for my tool holder... you do have to be careful when you get them all sharpened and honed.... I pay real close attention when I reach over for a new tool... I haven't slit my wrist yet, but.....
I have nicked my thumb a time or two..:eek: :D

misc-012-e1365903465304.jpg
 
Well, I figure I can add my vast months and months of experience in on the subject. First off, barring young'ns around to fetch you tools it is a waste of time to name them, they won't come when called anyway. Might be just as easy to put a number on each one. If you name them, give them male names. There are a host of dangers involved in giving possessions female names.

There is a lot of talk about nose angles, wing angles, jig angles, how far out the arm needs to be from the grinder, protrusion distance of the gouge from the jig, kinda funny two of the most important things are largely ignored.

The flute is the tail that wags the dog. "U" flutes can be deep or shallow, wide or narrow, and they are the simplest flute to deal with! "V" flutes can be a genuine "V" a modified "V", a wide "V", a narrow "V", about anything that is not sometimes called a "U" is sometimes called a "V" although some modified "V" tools are really parabolic flutes which are what you get when you leave your "U" shape fluted tools and "V" shape fluted tools too close together and let them breed in the dark of the moon. Crop outs and sports can occur as well as the more common parabolic flute, this discussion is best stopped here on a family forum. We have decently ducked mention of the fluteless and semi-fluteless gouges. There is only one reason to mention all of these endless flute shapes anyway; if you know what profile you want to grind a gouge to, be sure and buy a gouge that will grind to that profile! Strong drink and stronger language can be resorted to when trying to make a gouge grind to a shape it was never meant to be!

Flutes at least come in for some discussion, the transition area is something I never see discussed. While people generally say use whatever angles and protrusions suit you, this leads a beginner to vast headaches and halfvast working tools! When flute, protrusion, and grind profile don't work together the transition between the nose angle and wing angle is pretty much impossible to get right. I, and I think most turners, do a fair amount of work with this transition area. When the curve of the cutting edge is too abrupt it is difficult to work with. When it has flats in it of any significant length in the fine working area near the nose, the transition, the tool becomes even more difficult to use.

All of this is to explain why when buying a tool look first at the steel, then the flute profile, and finally at the grind. When grinding a tool, use all of the settings for that particular grind. Don't take the protrusion from Michelsen, the nose bevel angle from someone else and the wing setting from Lyle Jamieson. You wind up with something that is neither fish nor foul! Well actually it is foul, not fowl though. Once someone has the experience to grind what they want and blend it to please they can make most things work although I still think a lot of them use something less optimum than an integrated assembly. However, a beginner is well advised to go with an integrated approach. Also, do not start with the classic flat faced ninety degree nose on a bowl gouge. If you are a glutton for punishment at least take the wings back five or ten degrees. I wasted my first couple months trying to turn with the traditional grind and would have scored high 90's with some of the catches and crashes I had, they were epic! Someone could learn with a tool like that and a mentor. It might be possible without a mentor but surviving the experience is genuinely a difficulty.

Of the more traditional grinds I think the Jamieson works well. Some Elsworths' are now closer to the Jamieson, some suffer from that hump in the wings at the transition. Johannes Michelsen has a bowl gouge out that isn't bad about catching and will remove wood fairly fast, not a very aggressive gouge though. His grind seems to work best on a half inch gouge, maybe not as well on larger gouges because the very smooth transition from grind to flute tends to disappear.

A final note to close out this tome. Reed Gray is a fine fellow and a fine turner. He does things a bit differently than most however so unless a new turner is going to commit to fully modeling themselves after Reed at least for awhile he might not be the best turner to try to emulate in part. For beginners, taking a piece from here and a piece from there doesn't work well for wood turning. Best to use one work flow or another from rough-in to finish.

I don't know if this is a nickel's worth of value but it is certainly a nickel's worth of typing!

Hu
 
Roger,
I use something similar for my tool holder... you do have to be careful when you get them all sharpened and honed.... I pay real close attention when I reach over for a new tool... I haven't slit my wrist yet, but.....
I have nicked my thumb a time or two..:eek: :D

View attachment 90669

My tool holder was originally my wife's kitchen tool holder, for non sharp items like ladles. I find it holds the gouges very nicely, but I do worry when I am carrying it back and forth from the shed. If I fell, I'd love to see the coroner's report.
 
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