Split Air systems are for CRAZY people

Mark E Smith

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Arkansas
Ok this will be the third estimate I have gotten for split air (ductless) heat/air system for my workshop and garage. Workshop about 400 sq ft and the garage is around 500 sq ft (one and half car garage) so we are talking a two zone split air system. The lowest estimate is $6300, highest was $10,700 what is wrong with these people. I don't see it. This isn't rocket science it's a condenser outside.. a couple of cooper tubes and two small air handler. What or where is this crazy cost coming from...someone explain to me. How can this cost so much, for heaven sakes I can buy forty 12,000 btu heat pumps for these prices, make an whole wall full of ac units and still be cheaper. I just don't see where the cost is, and these estimates are real vague about it too, they don't list anything, no man hours, no material cost, nothing just the total cost, and they all that way. When you ask them they just babble on and tell you NOTHING. I guess I'm just gonna be hot in the summer and cold in the winter, because there is no way I paying these prices.
 
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Sounds to me like the local guys have more work than they care to do. That's often the case when they write up overpriced estimates.
 
Last year, I got an estimate for a split system for my ~800 ft² shop. It was $3,200.00, all in. I even thought that was high, and passed on it. I'm still using my 12,000 BTU window unit.
 
This was my trade for 20+ years. Those prices aren't too far out of line. The equipment that is dual zone with 2 indoor units and one outdoor are much higher than the single zone units. There is a unit made by Quietside (owned by LG) that is pretty inexpensive so if you can find someone that sells their stuff you might be able to find a little lower price. Even still, the $6300 is a pretty good price for 2 zones. You could probably get a better $ on one conventional split system with minimal duct to take care of the 2 spaces if that were an option.

On a side note, I refused to break down a price estimate as well. Our liability, auto, & work comp insurance premiums were $88k/year. It's hard to find a line to put that kind of thing on that the customer will understand. The price shock is one of the reasons I'm out of the business now. AC purchases are so few in a lifetime that we just don't know what to expect. Cars run ads on TV showing us what they're selling for, groceries creep up on us, but that AC? You hope to get 10-15 years out of it and when it's time to replace it's not so great that it's doubled in a decade but everything else has tripled... :(
 
The Split Air systems is mainly what we have here in Tokyo, I just checked and for the 500 sq ft area that would be two air cons, they each cost about $600 here and I could install them in your garage in an afternoon. Basically you have to have power inside near where you want the fan unit and then you have a hole in the wall that the power cable, drain and coolant pipes run through, the hold is usually 75mm or 3".
You put the outside unit on level ground, and attach the inside unit above and to one side of the hole, you attach the power cord, drain and two coolant pipe to the inside unit, and you have already attached the mounting plate on the wall, pop the unit onto the mounting plate, it hooks on the top and clicks on the bottom. then outside you hook up the three wires to the outside unit, red/black/white, you hook up the two coolant pipes, and then run the drain somewhere that works for you, tape up the coolant pipes, the drain and the power cord into one unit and attach it to the wall in a few places, make it nice and straight so it looks nice. Then you open the valves on the outside unit to let the coolant flow. Usually they have enough coolant in them for a 5-7 meter (16-22') coolant pipe run. Go inside and plug your AC into the wall outlet, put the batteries into the remocon and you have cool air. The units that I was looking at here are all 200V single phase, for the larger units they usually do the 200V.
Installation here by a pro is about $400 a unit, so I'd say here in Tokyo I could get two units installed that would do your 500 sq ft for about $2000.

FYI
 
Not to stir the pot, but I can keep my shop area (850sf) comfortable with a $250 window unit. Just sayin'...

You're exactly right Bill. A window unit or even a PTAC aka motel unit is a good choice for a shop since noise and aesthetics are usually of less concern.

The Split Air systems is mainly what we have here in Tokyo, I just checked and for the 500 sq ft area that would be two air cons, they each cost about $600 here and I could install them in your garage in an afternoon. Basically you have to have power inside near where you want the fan unit and then you have a hole in the wall that the power cable, drain and coolant pipes run through, the hold is usually 75mm or 3".
You put the outside unit on level ground, and attach the inside unit above and to one side of the hole, you attach the power cord, drain and two coolant pipe to the inside unit, and you have already attached the mounting plate on the wall, pop the unit onto the mounting plate, it hooks on the top and clicks on the bottom. then outside you hook up the three wires to the outside unit, red/black/white, you hook up the two coolant pipes, and then run the drain somewhere that works for you, tape up the coolant pipes, the drain and the power cord into one unit and attach it to the wall in a few places, make it nice and straight so it looks nice. Then you open the valves on the outside unit to let the coolant flow. Usually they have enough coolant in them for a 5-7 meter (16-22') coolant pipe run. Go inside and plug your AC into the wall outlet, put the batteries into the remocon and you have cool air. The units that I was looking at here are all 200V single phase, for the larger units they usually do the 200V.
Installation here by a pro is about $400 a unit, so I'd say here in Tokyo I could get two units installed that would do your 500 sq ft for about $2000.

FYI

Interesting, the wholesale cost of a 'cheap' 1.5T ductless split system is easily 3x that here. Plus the refrigerant lines are not pre-charged (most do have flare fittings so you only have to make up flare joints and not braze them) so you would need a gauge set and vacuum pump to evacuate the lineset before releasing and checking the refrigerant charge. All of the hundreds of these units I've sold and installed did have 3-4 wire connection between indoor and out but the 220v power supply is to the outdoor unit.
 
You're exactly right Bill. A window unit or even a PTAC aka motel unit is a good choice for a shop since noise and aesthetics are usually of less concern.



Interesting, the wholesale cost of a 'cheap' 1.5T ductless split system is easily 3x that here. Plus the refrigerant lines are not pre-charged (most do have flare fittings so you only have to make up flare joints and not braze them) so you would need a gauge set and vacuum pump to evacuate the lineset before releasing and checking the refrigerant charge. All of the hundreds of these units I've sold and installed did have 3-4 wire connection between indoor and out but the 220v power supply is to the outdoor unit.

The lines are not charged, you buy them in various lengths, usually 3m, 5m, 7m and 10m are common, with the 5m being the most common.

The inside unit has the two flare nuts on a short piece of copper line all ready to go the line set you buy has the flares and nuts on it, as well as the insulation already on the lines. You just connect the lines inside, and then to the outside unit, open the valves on the outside unit and you are done. Like I said if you run only 3m or 5m of hose, usually you don't have to add extra refrigerant.

They are VERY easy to install. Most home already have the hole in the wall and the electrical outlet nearby wired in.

Here you go, this is a very typical install, in fact a bit of a nicer install with the outside pipe cover and mounted to the wall of the house, often the unit is just set on the ground on some cement bases.

 
You'll notice at 2:19 he's using a vacuum pump to evacuate the moisture and air from the refrigerant lines. Skip that step and it won't work well at all nor will it last a week.
 
You'll notice at 2:19 he's using a vacuum pump to evacuate the moisture and air from the refrigerant lines. Skip that step and it won't work well at all nor will it last a week.
yes he is because he is using a roll of tubing, the sets are sealed and you don't need the vacuum pump. I've installed at least a half dozen of these in our building in the last few years and they are all working just fine :)
 
yes he is because he is using a roll of tubing, the sets are sealed and you don't need the vacuum pump. I've installed at least a half dozen of these in our building in the last few years and they are all working just fine :)

Don't mean to split hairs, if the sets you used were sealed then they are called a precharged lineset, have a piercing connection at each end, and are charged with a minimal charge (typically .5-.7 ounces per linear foot). I'm not trying to argue and I don't know much but I do know air conditioning from the chemical theory to the mechanical application. The only way a line could be sealed and not precharged would be for it to be shipped in a vacuum and I don't know an engineer around that would want to rely on the o-ring seal of the quick-connect piercing fitting to prevent air from getting in the tubing that is in a vacuum and ruining the system.

Sorry to hijack the thread and my biggest concern would be that someone would browse and think they could just connect open tubing with flare nuts, open the valves, and let it rip and have something that would work. :twocents: In today's world where anyone can order just about anything off the internet there are a lot of expensive DIY mistakes because of simple misunderstandings. I'll shut up now. :):whistling:
 
There are a couple of precharged mini split systems available in the US, the Mitsubishi Mr Slim appears fairly popular (I don't think the lines on that are pre charged so you still need a vacuum pump, etc.. but there are a couple others I think are), and has apparently been within range of quite a few diyers. No idea on the actual difficulty of install. Most of them seem to be in the $1500 or so range. Not as cheap as stu is seeing, but more in the plausible range. Shop around a bit you might find something you can tackle.
 
Don't mean to split hairs, if the sets you used were sealed then they are called a precharged lineset, have a piercing connection at each end, and are charged with a minimal charge (typically .5-.7 ounces per linear foot). I'm not trying to argue and I don't know much but I do know air conditioning from the chemical theory to the mechanical application. The only way a line could be sealed and not precharged would be for it to be shipped in a vacuum and I don't know an engineer around that would want to rely on the o-ring seal of the quick-connect piercing fitting to prevent air from getting in the tubing that is in a vacuum and ruining the system.

Sorry to hijack the thread and my biggest concern would be that someone would browse and think they could just connect open tubing with flare nuts, open the valves, and let it rip and have something that would work. :twocents: In today's world where anyone can order just about anything off the internet there are a lot of expensive DIY mistakes because of simple misunderstandings. I'll shut up now. :):whistling:

You are not splitting hairs you are relating you experience, I'm relating mine. I know that you should use the vacuum pump, but I also know that for the short run of pipe the pro guys say it does not really matter, like I said I have systems here working that I hooked up just like I said that are used all year round as a heater in the winter and cooler in the summer and they have been working for 5+ years. Could it be that these systems are somehow different inside? They somehow have a capacity to work as I've said?
I'll shut up too :)
 
My shop is just under 300 sq. ft.. (12 x 24 ft tin building set under a big oak tree)... in summer I just open both doors and run a 20" box fan... in winter I have a little oil radiator... the building isn't insulated or set up for either ac or heat..... summer doesn't give me much problems, but winter I can't work so long... when my feet get cold, it's time to give it up.
 
Well still haven't committed to this yet, but I do have him down to $5200 if my electrician will provide a 220v 25 amp breaker box outside where the condenser will go, and this is for a Mitsubishi Cooling & Heating system, so it is a good system, every one seems to agree they are top of the line...but, I really don't like all the secrecy around these estimates. I can understand the competitive nature of it all, but just getting an estimate with the final total and NOTHING else, oh I mean basic info, it will be a 2 ton with two indoor air handlers, man can it get any more vague then that..., I can't even know what the air handler capacities are, what unit he is planning on using...jeez my gut is YELLING at me to walk away. I get it you don't want to let me know what your labor cost, man hours, material etc.. are going to be, fine, but I can't even know what unit you plan to install, what it looks like, what it does... nothing. These HVAC folks have got to be doing something illegal. This is not some fly by night companies either, and so far all three of them are doing the same thing. I am 58 yrs old and never dealt with this kind of craziness, how do these folks stay in business. I sure am glad other companies don't operate this way, could you imagine going to a car dealership, and the salesman says you just tell me how much you can spend and I'll sell you the car I choose, no you don't get to know what it is, I'll take care of that...lol...can you imagine.
 
... ...jeez my gut is YELLING at me to walk away. ...

Yep! The ball is in your court. When I deal with someone, they tell me what I want to know - or else!!!

Edit: Just took a look at some PTAC (hotel units) that average about $800 each. One in each area would work for you.
 
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They should definitely tell you what they're installing and all that their turn key installation includes. The hvac biz is weird but so many fly by nights do screw up the market and despite a lot of time and energy, customers shop their prices without apples to apples comparisons that a lot of companies have gone to a take it or leave it pricing strategy. Don't know that it's the best but considering the average net profit margin for hvac contractors in the US is 2%, I doubt it's theft. Lol

I'm very happy to be out of that business! :D
 
Yep! The ball is in your court. When I deal with someone, they tell me what I want to know - or else!!!

Edit: Just took a look at some PTAC (hotel units) that average about $800 each. One in each area would work for you.

Ya I have been looking at them too, but cutting a huge hole in the wall would not be my first choice and the units I have looked at only have half the seer rating of the ductless. This mit unit is 21 seer, that's pretty good. Maybe I need to take another look at them, you are the second person to mention them...my electrician that will be installing my subpanel for the unit said the same thing...hmm..I am a woodworking so cutting a hole in a wall is not that big deal I guess...lol...I know why these guys are like this, they are worried if they give me all the info, I'll go out and buy the unit on the internet and do it myself...not likely, since I have COPD (not on O2 yet, but ain't far from it), my days of doing big projects like that are over. It would take all weekend to cut them holes and definitely require help to put PTACs in the hole, would have to take lots of break and be hitting that inhaler like it was going out of style. I guess I just have to suck it up and pay the price for being old and disabled.
 
I'm pretty sure my parents paid less for their whole 6-headed Mitsubishi system installed than your upper quote. Of course they had the oldest and most trusted local company do the job and they totally butchered it causing the system to regularly fault and causing 3 different floods. It took screaming and yelling to get them to fix most of it right and they are now paying a new company to fix some of the issues. Its critical to my dad since he has advanced COPD. Lesson--make SURE that the company you have do the work has a lot of experience. In this case their 120 years of boiler experience (although it also turns out they didn't really do a great job on the boiler they installed 10 years ago either) was pretty much irrelevant.
 
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