The great debate...

This seems to be a great place for this link. This guy was given a CNC and because he couldn't produce perfect results in 6 days(3 Weekends) he thinks it is not worth while... And he is dead serious and sincere.. i haven't watched any of his other work.. ...

That guy is not typical of Shapeoko or XCarve users, if you believe what folks post on other forums. I've been amazed that people buy an XCarve, can't figure out how to follow instructions, then complain because the "KIT" wasn't ready to use out of the box. What part of "KIT" do these people not understand?
 
... Something i would like to see is if Bill sent Leo the program for his box lid carvings and Leo ran that on his new machine, just how well the big machine would do it. There is a challenge. Part of me is guessing that Bills machine with a fine bit has achieved better than what Leos big machine will do but i dont know. ...

There's no reason to believe Leo's CNC couldn't run my box lid faster due to its power and stability. The bits I used range from 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" shanks.

I would be willing.

I like that sort of challange

Here's the link to my VCarve file.
 
The "Great debate" - CNC is a tool. If its appropriate to your task it can be a very good tool. If its not then its not.

I run three CNC machines. Two of them have 3 heads to cut 3 identical components on the same pass. I cut around 15000 components a year using those machines. The repetitive nature of the components I cut means that no other tool would make those components as well or as quickly. It is a transformative tool for my business. With about five years of experience I can set up and or refine jobs pretty efficiently. It probably took me 2 years of daily use to get to that point.

Sometime I compare the process to printing chairs. But it isn't like printing. I am still cutting wood. Using metal. Both of those items have physical properties and understanding the interface of those physical properties is necessary and, at least a little bit, requires judgement. I cut hardwoods using 1/8" spiral cutters holding the workpiece with vacuum. If I cut on the climb the result is different in size to cutting conventional. The change in deflection of the cutting bit is enough that the component comes out different. Not much different but enough to disrupt any naive expectation of exactness. I went through about a dozen different types and sizes of foam tape before I found one that made a good vacuum seal but minimised deflection when the cut was being made. I cut 21mm hardwoods. I have found that the best way to get a good finish is to cut through that thickness in 5 or 6 passes and then make a final full depth pass reducing the size of the toolpath by 0.1 of a mm. (about 1/250th of an inch). And I get the best result if I repeat that last cut 4 times on the exact same toolpath. It takes a bit longer but what comes off is the best compromise. So this kind of "learned experience" is , for want of a better word, the craft of using a CNC. Just like the craft involved in a hand cut dovetail. But different. And neither of them is going to be learned by anybody, anywhere in 6 days.

Using CNC is probably a bit like driving a vintage car. If you have enough money and can hand the problems over to somebody else then you can probably do it and as soon as something goes wrong just hand it over to somebody to fix. Or you can own it because you are interested in it and are willing to spend the time to get to know it well and troubleshoot and fix the problems and because you enjoy fixing it almost as much as you enjoy driving it.

CNC suppliers have a vested interest in persuading people that they are buying a consumer item like a printer. But you are not and if you think that owning one is autmatically going to earn you money or save you time then you are wrong. It can earn you money if you have a good product that needs it as a production tool. But without the product its just a hobby. And it will only start to save you time when you really understand it - about 2 years is my guess.
 
I think there were perhaps some unrealistic expectations there. I've seen where people bought a $30k table saw and spent 2+ weeks commissioning it. If you're doing rough construction work you probably don't need to tune your TS very much. OTOH if you're doing high end cabinet work where the client expects sub millimetre precision then you're likely going to have to both upgrade to a higher end machine and spend a bit of time tweaking it.

It really depends a lot on what you want out of it, if you were doing something like bottle openers that aren't super precise perhaps the machine would have worked adequately out of the box. It also sounds like there are a few well known issues (like the dirty rails) that didn't look that hard to find or fix... which is imho unsurprising at this price point (and wouldn't be that surprising at several levels above it).
 
That guy is not typical of Shapeoko or XCarve users, if you believe what folks post on other forums. I've been amazed that people buy an XCarve, can't figure out how to follow instructions, then complain because the "KIT" wasn't ready to use out of the box. What part of "KIT" do these people not understand?

Exactly Bill,:thumb:

And Rob I don't rally get your take on this. I have seen no one presenting these as a consumer machine. It is strictly all part of the maker movement which is mostly about going around all the management types out there. CNC's Like Carols and Leo's are a different breed entirely though the way up to one of the is progressive for many.

The machine Daren has isn't even in the kit category it is from a free set of plans and is actually pretty capable of craft style work..

You have a guy in Canada that started with a Taig or X2 mill and now has a Mori Seki and his only product is knives.
CNC ed his own Griz lathe several years ago now has a lower end commercial slantbed...

http://grimsmo-knives.myshopify.com/
Not wood but many similar concepts..
Garry
 
There's no reason to believe Leo's CNC couldn't run my box lid faster due to its power and stability. The bits I used range from 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" shanks.



Here's the link to my VCarve file.


I will run the test - maybe over the weekend.

I would expect the same results or maybe better and faster. I don't say that to be one upping, but the reality is that I have a far more rigid machine and far more spindle power and axis drive power. It's like comparing a heavy duty truck, to my frontier. Both are great in their own right.

One thing I will point out is the artistic creation of Bill's top. What Bill did was to put the skill into artistic design. THAT is where the art is. The machine is just going to move the cutter around on the same path that Bill's machine did.
 
Ohhh I agree with Rob.

Though there may not be a "direct" marketing campaign to be selling machines as a magic trick to get a sign business going - there IS a trend out there where innocent and unwary people are buying these machines to get into the business, only to find that it is not so easy. Just to make signs - never mind CNC - I have been practicing and researching for about 5-6 years now.

I know where I am in this game. I have been in this professionally for over 40 years and it may look easy when watching me work. To "me" yes it is easy. That is why I have so much fun with it. To me it is playtime, even with $500,000 machines working to sub micron specs.

I have counseled many people and discouraged several people from buying a CNC machine. Like the guy in the video - it is the WRONG choice for some people. The video guy did the right thing, and I will commend the manufacturer for the donation. The guy did not try to make it work out. Good for him. I also watched April Wilkerson make the exact same statement.

CNC machining is a technical skill. It is NOT what many people think, whereas the machine does all the work magically. This is a skilled operation.

I do not place fault on the machine. I also do not place fault on the video author. He did the right thing for what he wants to accomplish. His game is to make the videos and post the videos. He does not want a big learning experience on his hands. That does not help him to produce the videos. He DID try it, though I feel he took advantage of the machine manufacturer.
 
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